Bin Laden is DEAD!

[AndyHB]

Captain America Jesus!

Oh, you mean 'Bey Jeezus'?

[Boudi]

dat's da man

[pow wow]

Captain America Jesus?
What type of church are you connected to? What kind of church and what kind of "preacher" are you? Or are you really at all. Do you and your church make a habit of mocking Jesus? I think I've got you figured out. Has things gotten so dark in the UK that your supposed preachers joke around with the name Jesus? Perhaps someone isn't a preacher at all. My guess is that you would have to be somebody that is more unitarian, all religions are one, lets put flowers in our hair and dance naked on some pagan feast or even for Christmas. But for sure any time all the planets are lined up correctly. Yikes!

[Boudi]

Thankfully not one that celebrates death, and tries to twist scripture round so that killing can be justified.

it seems to bother you that I'm a preacher, is that because you wanted to go one up in claiming to be the son of one, and feel like your balloon is a little saggy?

You obviously know as little about Unitarianism as you do about so much.  i think you'll find people are  mocking the way some folk are so desperate to get their own message across that they wouldn'y know the real Jesus if he have them 5 loaves and a couple of fish.

[AndyHB]

Captain America Jesus?
What type of church are you connected to? What kind of church and what kind of "preacher" are you? Or are you really at all. Do you and your church make a habit of mocking Jesus? I think I've got you figured out. Has things gotten so dark in the UK that your supposed preachers joke around with the name Jesus?

PW, here in the UK we sometimes find ourselves being encouraged to take on apparently evangelical beliefs and understandings of Jesus that simply don't fit traditional understandings - for instance, the Prosperity Gospel or the way in which the Southern Baptists seem to regard themselves as a better form of Christians.

Sadly, there are often grains or even rocks of truth in some of the teaching (ie the Prosperity Gospel is not totally alien to Christ's teaching), but the way it is taught - such as though TV appeals to give the preacher money that you might be blessed in return - is what is so iniquitous.

These are almost invariably beliefs that have developed in America, so we will often lampoon them by making comments such as Captain America Jesus.  At the same time, those of us who are evangelicals here in the UK will often be tarred with this same brush, because of the fact that we share the label of evangelical.

[Jan]

Jan, there is only one Jesus Christ and He is God the Son.

There are different understandings of Jesus Christ (clearly). We each might read the same Bible - but interpret it differently- you see a war type Christ who is 'on your side' - I see a loving Christ who loves everyone (all of us are brothers and sisters of Christ - all children of God) loves  even enemies, doesn't take sides, does not judge - a Christ that wants peace - no killing etc etc.

There are different translations of the same scripture (what we call the Bible - though some scripture was not included in the Bible). Some words in scripture have been mistranslated (which can also cause confusion). Then again - no mind is exactly the same, no spiritual consciousness of one person is exactly the same as the spiritual consciousness of another person.

[Jan]

lets put flowers in our hair and dance naked on some pagan feast or even for Christmas. But for sure any time all the planets are lined up correctly. Yikes!

Ooooh that sounds like fun. 

I will be sure to bring my crystal ball, my crystal wand, runes, crystals, tarot cards etc etc

you can bring the chickens

[ecuworrier]

Andy my reason for using Romans 13 was to show plainly and clearly that the state is justified in using the sword.

breezing through a few pages of this thread i read thus far of your post powwow and ....  i didn't feel i needed to read any further... sounds to me like you said yourself is that blinding truth of proving anything with statistics......   that statement just proves you want to justify a position coming from a deeper place and hey presto, bingo! (innglish game of chance )  your position is found ... are you seriously suggesting that Paul didn't reallly give up his cheerleaders role after his moment at Damascus...?  if you have any evidence for any acts of violence or any cheerleading on Paul's part then perlease let's be havin them.....   Acts of the Apostles is a bit thin on that aspect...

Paul did say somewhere 'the word kills the Spirit breathes life'  me i like that about GOD

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,

[pow wow]

Boudi,
I'm sorry. I'm going to tone it down and be more polite. My posts are certainly not showing much evidence of Christian love. I was shocked a bit. I've never met a Christian preacher that jokes around with the name of Jesus and I didn't need to get all up about it. Not to mention my other posts. So anyway I guess we know each others opinion on the use of the sword and neither will be swayed by the other.

ecu, if Paul didn't believe that the state is justified in using the sword to protect us from people who do evil then he would not have written that it is.
I wish Osama had allowed all those innocent people on 9/11 to plead for their lives, given a chance to explain why they're not guilty and why they should live.

Andy, this prosperity gospel is a heresy that has crept into many evangelical churches. Many of us evangelicals stand against it. As a Baptist I gotta tell you that I really don't know the southern Baptists. I do know that there are finger pointers in every church. I do know that Jimmy Carter and Al Gore are Baptists and are just as disgusted by the Westboro group as I am.

[Jan]

ecu, if Paul didn't believe that the state is justified in using the sword to protect us from people who do evil then he would not have written that it is.

He didn't though pow wow - please read the link below for more of an explanation

link here

Think about it. If Jesus was all for physical violence then he would not have let himself be arrested not without a  physical fight (with swords!).

[pow wow]

Jan, I took a look at the link. I agree in the use of the sword in self defense. The problem is we are miles apart in how we see what Obama did. I see his actions as self defense on our behalf. I mean Osama has had ten years to turn himself in and explain or repent for his actions. Osama was in the middle of planning terrorist attacks on trains in the US.
The episode of Christ and Peter drawing the sword has no link to the states God given responsability to use the sword to protect it's people. Christ came to die for us, of course He wouldn't have Peter prevent it nor would He call down the angels
I do believe that if Osama had put up his hands in surrender when they came into that room he would still be alive. He should have learned from Sadam. He was smart enough to raise his hand before he crawled out of his rat hole. That gave him a bit more time living so that his own countrymen could hang him.
Just saw on CBC that Canada's la belle province (Quebec) has passed a resolution in it's legislature about the death of Osama. It's a watered down version making it more acceptable to the social lefty separitists, but it passed. Sometimes the polititians in la belle province impress me, not often though.

[Jan]

Jan, I took a look at the link. I agree in the use of the sword in self defense.

The info in the link suggests it should only be used in extreme cases - really when there is nothing else. Self defense is quite different from going in and attacking/shooting someone who is unarmed.

The problem is we are miles apart in how we see what Obama did. I see his actions as self defense on our behalf. I mean Osama has had ten years to turn himself in and explain or repent for his actions. Osama was in the middle of planning terrorist attacks on trains in the US.

Terrorist attacks will not stop by the killing BL - they will continue. These people have no fear of death - they welcome it because they believe that by dying for their cause they will go straight to paradise. Killing them is not the answer for that reason as well as what is in the Bible - Christs teachings. How do you stop them? You have to try another way. Perhaps it would not have got so bad if this could have been sorted out sooner - instead though more violence, more killing ... and where has it got us?

The episode of Christ and Peter drawing the sword has no link to the states God given responsability to use the sword to protect it's people.

It gives a clear indication of Christs view on violence. I think the protection of people thing has been explained by other posters.

Christ came to die for us, of course He wouldn't have Peter prevent it nor would He call down the angels

Because Christ is of peace.

I do believe that if Osama had put up his hands in surrender when they came into that room he would still be alive.

who knows? unless any of us was actually there to see. perhaps he did surrender or perhaps he was taken by surprise and it was all a bit of a blur.

[pow wow]

Jan,
Only a fool would think that evil will end with the execution of Osama. The Bible is clear about evil and when it will end. Here's a problem I have. On one hand you say Christ is of peace. Yes the Bible clearly tells us this. So this part of the Bible you say is correct. But where Christ acts out in a rage (a righteous rage) and where the Bible foretells the war Christ will fight, you throw up arguments about how unreliabel or possibly inacurate or who really wrote a particular book in it. This is how you dismiss the responsability of our states to use the sword against those that do evil. Again, Osama was in the middle of planning attacks on US trains. Now being that the US was criminal in going into Pakistan in the first place so you believe. Who has the resposability to prevent those attacks exactly and how? You refuse to separate the resposability of the state and how we conduct our day to day interaction with others. Romans clearly shows us the distinction. Evil is real. Can I ask you how would you have Osama brought to justice? Keeping in mind, we cannot go into Pakistan, they won't arrest him for us as, have't for the past 10yrs. Jan the way it would have worked out if your view prevailed is that Osama would never be held to account. He would live his days in that luxury compound working on those terrorist attacks on trains. Where is any justice in this? But your view gives no other result but that.
I think the problem is that you can't wrap your head around the fact that a person can have to kill and yet be a person with Christian love. Any justified violence or future violence shown us in scripture you dismiss with the excuses that I have mentioned. You must take the scripture in it's entirety or dismiss all and not use it as a support for you views. So does the scripture have any authority for you? Is it just a case of selective use for a view point? We are to love one another according to scripture and the state can us the sword according to scripture. I knew growing up that my parents loved me and I also new that if I did drugs, I would have been thrown out or if I had pulled a crime they would have called the police on me. If I killed an innocent person they would not blame the state at my execution. They would be weeping for me.

[Boudi]

Firstly, thank you for the earlier comment PW.

|As for the Captain America Jesus.......this is a reference to the way we shape Jesus in the way we want him to be.  Often in the past he has been made wrathful and vengeful, bringing people to book and handing out harsh punishments.  To others he's a hippy dropout who disregards the laws. For me the important Jesus is the one who broke the cycle of distruction when he told us to turn the other cheek.  It's not backing down,it's not cowardice, it takes a bigger man to stand and take it for the sake of peace.  Jesus realised this, and it's the job he handed on.  For me Jesus is a prince of peace because he challenged us to take a different path.

With regard to Pakistan, if they are friends, then this is a two way street.  America says, we know he's there, we are going in now, come along with us.  Maybe they shpould have known he was there....but if they didn't...America should have told them?

[Jan]

Jan,
Only a fool would think that evil will end with the execution of Osama. The Bible is clear about evil and when it will end. Here's a problem I have. On one hand you say Christ is of peace. Yes the Bible clearly tells us this. So this part of the Bible you say is correct.

I would say the bible seems to be clear on this pow wow

But where Christ acts out in a rage (a righteous rage) and where the Bible foretells the war Christ will fight, you throw up arguments about how unreliabel or possibly inacurate or who really wrote a particular book in it.

Now it seems you have bundled the stall/table tipping part (already explained ) and the book of Daniel together (already explained as to why it is unreliable)

 

This is how you dismiss the responsability of our states to use the sword against those that do evil.

Others have explained this part

Again, Osama was in the middle of planning attacks on US trains. Now being that the US was criminal in going into Pakistan in the first place so you believe. Who has the resposability to prevent those attacks exactly and how?

well unless there is intelligence and evidence to show exactly where and when the attacks were intended you wouldn't have anything to go on in preventing them. You are dealing with individuals or people working in small groups. Security searches, security monitoring/screening and CCTV would be helpful in preventing attacks - like there is already in airports. Getting the public to be vigilant in looking out for anything suspicious. Taking security precautions. Working with Pakistan and the Islamic community (the Islam religion as far as I understand is peaceful)

You refuse to separate the resposability of the state and how we conduct our day to day interaction with others.

Please explain what you mean here?

Romans clearly shows us the distinction. Evil is real.

We know that evil is quite real pow wow - but you have to go into the causes of why will humans do this to each other? In the enemies eyes it is us that are evil and they are the freedom fighters.

Can I ask you how would you have Osama brought to justice? Keeping in mind, we cannot go into Pakistan, they won't arrest him for us as, have't for the past 10yrs.

BL should have faced justice like any other terrorist - but by trial first rather than by just being shot and becoming a martyr. That is what we have a legal system in place for surely?

 

Jan the way it would have worked out if your view prevailed is that Osama would never be held to account. He would live his days in that luxury compound working on those terrorist attacks on trains. Where is any justice in this? But your view gives no other result but that.

this is not true pow wow. You don't know what would have happened.

I think the problem is that you can't wrap your head around the fact that a person can have to kill and yet be a person with Christian love.

killing really goes against what I believe Christ has tried to teach us pow wow. I do not see anything 'Christian' in that at all

Any justified violence or future violence shown us in scripture you dismiss with the excuses that I have mentioned. You must take the scripture in it's entirety or dismiss all and not use it as a support for you views.

That is a strange statement to make regarding scripture (esp in light of how the books of the Bible were chosen - which to keep in and which to get rid of - at the Council of Nicea. Some of the Bible I find helpful, some is extremely cruel and violent and abusive and horrific. Some of the Bible has been mistranslated and there are of course the contradiction. Also there is much of it which is not true - the story of creation for example anyway. We have two accounts of this in the bible, not exactly the same. Which is true? Well science shows how our physical bodies  evolved from apes - not Adam and Eve. In another part of scripture (not shown in your bible but in the Babylonian Talmud)  Adam had another wife called Lilith (look it up). My point is there are myths in there and stories. Do you believe snakes can talk?

I believe your other questions have already been answered - now why don't you answer the questions put to you earlier on in this thread?