Bin Laden is DEAD!

[Jan]

LOL! Good grief you two!
Jan, Boudi accused me of those verses in Romans being new to me. Not true. Yes being a S.O.P(son of a preacher) I was introduced to the word of God right from my adoption. That would be 44yrs. Get real. How much time do you spend in the word of God in a day, a week a month? Not much, like Boudi.

The verses in Romans may not be new to you (we wouldn't know either way) however - it is how you are using them here that is the problem.
Being introduced to 'the word of God' early  again depends mainly on the understanding and interpretation. Age doesn't necessarily come into it either. There is a saying that wisdom comes with age but sometimes age comes alone. What do you mean by your remark 'get real'? Your last comment here makes me think you believe this to be some kind of 'competition' or that you feel there has been a challenge put to you on how much of the Bible you know (you are trying to use it as a defense here).

The word (Christ teachings of love & peace) being written on our human hearts

Yes, I haven't spent all those years just taking what a preacher says as the truth. Daily reading and devotional time really is needed to understand God message to us. But being the two of you aren't big on reading and devotions and big on ignoring the complete picture of God's word, what's the point of going on about it? So I leave it there.

Pow wow. My dads Uncle was also a preacher in a Methodist Church. I do not recall him coming to the same conclusion as you though. I was a Sunday school teacher a while back - again I did not come to the same conclusion as you.

Yes I do know the scriptures and Jan MY POINT is I will not use atheist web sites to learn about my scriptures.

Out of your comfort zone I see.

MY POINT is I will happily dabate any supposed contradiction with YOU.

But you won't - you have already said as much

 

I will with gladness show both you and Boudi I'm no stranger to the Bible. With gladness I  will show you things in that book that I know neither of you would ever have thought.

The way you interpret the bible Pow wow - I don't think so

You know one of my favourite things is inviting JW's into my house and having a great and lively debate on scripture. Trouble is once they realize I know my way in the Bible and am no weak Christian, they head to the door. Oh well,a couple more are sure to come a calling soon enough.

What is this supposed to prove? You are scary to JW's? 

Anyway I will debate a contradiction with you, not read atheist web sites. Feel free to use them and put it in your own words as I'm sure you will have to do.

Only one contradiction? There are absolutely loads of them. The ones on the atheists website link are actually in the words taken from the bible Pow wow. What are you afraid of exactly?

[Boudi]

I too have seen Jehovah's Witnesses make their excuses up about needing to catch a bus!  And as an aside I am an active preacher.  Can't claim descent, but hey, maybe being one stands for something.  Good to know that going to fundamentalist high schjool lets you attack a person on the basis of their parentage, and on knowledge of the Bible even though there are many here who live, breathe, amd more importantly, know it.  I would be happier saying that the bigger picture comes down to peace, and to doing away with weaponry wherever possible.  If there was a kesson for the Bin Laden case it would be that killing him in the way they did is more likely to escalate the violence as reprisals occur.
We hjad a similar situation not many years ago with the capture of Saddam Hussein.  Was he shot in the hole he was found in?  No, he was put on trial.  He was given an opportunity to speak.  he was given a chance, and the world could see that he was given a chance.

[JJ]

My Dad was a farmer and a lay Methodist preacher and he had five old tables in the barns.  They're still there actually, might scrub them up this summer and put one or two out in the yard.

Wow, I reckon that gets you closest to Jesus! Henning Wehn tells us that Mel Gibson tells us that Jesus invented furniture, so maybe that's why it's so important to the thread.

Yes I heard that!    Funny.

[AndyHB]

Andy,
An assasination is what happened to Martin Luther King or JFK. Osama was a TERRORIST.

'Assassination' depends on the person, not what they did, PW  The dictionary definition of the word is:

the murder of a famous or important person, especially for political reasons

(Macmillan Dictionary Online)

Assassinations are usually 'sponsored' by organisations or governing authorities.

Those verses do not tell it only applies within one states borders. Did I miss it?

Yes, you did.  The passage is within the context of paying taxes and therefore refers to a nation's policies.  I am British, and unless I hold property in the US or Canada (which I don't), I am not answerable to the US or Canada when it comes to paying tax.  Similarly, as a Briton, I am not bound by American or Canadian law unless I happen to visit the country. 

This was an extra-judicial killing, carried out by forces of one country on a citizen of a second and within the borders of a third.

What message does that give to terrorists and, in all honesty, what makes it any different to the extra-judicial killings carried out by citizens on one or more nations, of citizens of several nations, within the borders of what (for many) was a third nation on 9/11?

[AndyHB]

I will with gladness show both you and Boudi I'm no stranger to the Bible. With gladness I  will show you things in that book that I know neither of you would ever have thought.

The way you interpret the bible Pow wow - I don't think so

But he already has, Jan.  He has certainly shown me something I'd never have thought to read into this passage from Romans!!   

[pow wow]

Boudi, you're a preacher? Cool! Dare I ask if you are affilliated with any particular church? Or are you like the little guy with the long beard that I see every time I go to Honolulu. He sits cross legged on top of a mail box just outside the international market place at night and does his preaching to passers by. I feel sorry for the old guy. I've never seen anyone listening to him. But the Hare Krishnas! The cops have to chase them all over the place. They get such huge crowds by their jumping and noise it blocks the side walks.

Jan,
What's wrong with you and I debating a supposed contradition of your choice? Why insist I go to an atheist site?

I wonder what you make of the prophecy on the Prince of princes fighting and slaughtering that we find in the book of Daniel. Oh and then of course we know from the book of Revelations what Christ will be doing. I have an notion that some have tossed Daniel and Revelations into the garbage. Makes them uncomfortable becuse it's not all love and hugs it contradicts their narrowed view of Jesus.

[Jan]

Jan,
What's wrong with you and I debating a supposed contradition of your choice? Why insist I go to an atheist site?

For convenience Pow wow - because that is where the contradictions have been listed already. They are taken from real Bible references Pow wow. All I would be doing is copying and pasting them from the site. I could do that I guess - on a different topic (rather than change the course of this one), seeing as visiting the site is obviously way out of your comfort zone - but what would the point be, when they have already been listed by the atheists?

But he already has, Jan.  He has certainly shown me something I'd never have thought to read into this passage from Romans!!   

Yes he has given us a taste of his fundamentalist understanding on certain passages - which is what I say 'no thank you' to. I don't think he has bothered to even look at the link I added giving a reasoned explanation (from a Christian) on what it is more likely to mean.

[Jan]

I wonder what you make of the prophecy on the Prince of princes fighting and slaughtering that we find in the book of Daniel. Oh and then of course we know from the book of Revelations what Christ will be doing. I have an notion that some have tossed Daniel and Revelations into the garbage. Makes them uncomfortable becuse it's not all love and hugs it contradicts their narrowed view of Jesus.

hmmmm well ....

Unfortunately, this and various other Biblical passages predicting the future are ambiguous. The events themselves are open to many interpretations. There is no clear indication of either their timing or sequence. Some Christians believe that "millennium" does not mean a time interval of exactly 1,000 years. Rather it refers to a long interval of time. Some Christians interpret events mentioned in the Christian Scriptures as descriptions of real happenings in our future; others interpret them symbolically and/or as events that have already occurred.

This leaves the passages open to many conflicting beliefs about the end times. A lot of intra-denominational and inter-denominational strife has resulted from disagreements about end time prophecy. For example, the Roman Catholic Church and most mainline and liberal denominations do not have expectation that a Rapture will occur in the way anticipated by many fundamentalist and other evangelical faith groups.

quoted from here

[AndyHB]

Pow-wow, I've just been reviewing a selection of commentaries - from the 1577 Geneva Study Bible to Tom Wright's recent 'Romans and the Theology of Paul', via Matthew Henry, the IVP New Bible Commentary of 1994, and Martin Luther's well-known commentary on Romans.


All of them state that Romans 13:1-7 deals with the Christian's response and responsibility to government, and that government's responsibility and right to punish those who break the laws they make.  Clearly, there is nothing other than a local/national - perhaps even empire-wide - context.  It has nothing to do with punishing people in a different jurisdiction.

Unless you can find a half-dozen or so commentary references that say otherwise, perhaps you ought to move on from Romans 13 and try and find some other scriptural support for your opinion expressed on this thread.

[AndyHB]

This leaves the passages open to many conflicting beliefs about the end times. A lot of intra-denominational and inter-denominational strife has resulted from disagreements about end time prophecy. For example, the Roman Catholic Church and most mainline and liberal denominations do not have expectation that a Rapture will occur in the way anticipated by many fundamentalist and other evangelical faith groups.

quoted from here

Unfortunately, Jan, "many fundamentalist and other evangelical faith groups" have as varied a selection of expectations and interpretations as any of the other groups mentioned here.  For instance, my wife and I disagree on exactly how to interpret the end-time scriptures.  In our church alone (of some 330 members), we probably have 10 or 12 different groupings when it comes to discussions of this topic.

[AndyHB]

Haven't listened to it all, but here is a link to an item on Premier radio.

[Jan]

Unfortunately, Jan, "many fundamentalist and other evangelical faith groups" have as varied a selection of expectations and interpretations as any of the other groups mentioned here.  For instance, my wife and I disagree on exactly how to interpret the end-time scriptures.  In our church alone (of some 330 members), we probably have 10 or 12 different groupings when it comes to discussions of this topic.

Yes Andy that was the point I was trying to make in response to Pow wow.

[pow wow]

Andy my reason for using Romans 13 was to show plainly and clearly that the state is justified in using the sword. That is killing somebody. Even my commentairies do not mention if the state is justified in entering another to execute or apprehend a terroist master mind. No, but I believe we are. It's outrageous that such a devil can live in luxury for the rest of his days, constantly planning and executing the deaths of innocent people and God would condem those that go in and eliminate such a threat.  Andy, Pakistan had ten years to get the job done. They had no intention of handing him over to us. None what so ever. The only other senario beside what has happened is that Osama would be safe and living high, killing and killing and killing innocent peolple. Nothing can convince me that Obama gave the wrong order and broke the law, is a murderer and criminal that needs to go on trial over there in Europe. Obama gave the order and it was the right one and no sin against the Lord.
I do agree with your thoughts on the various views on the end times. I remember as a kid the college student would come for supper and have lively debates. Some felt the tribulation was during the days of Nero, some said we were living in them and some said they were yet to come. Does not effect my salvation. I call myself a pan millenialist, I made that up. I don't know for sure when but I do know for sure that it will all pan out in the end.

Jan so in Daniel when it talks specifically of the Prince of princes and Revelation talks of Christ specifically and what exactly he will do, I am to take it a symbolism? Sure there is no date given and the whole Bible is open to interprtations but when you have such specifics telling us Christ will do this or that, it's no abstract piece of art work.

[AndyHB]

Even my commentairies do not mention if the state is justified in entering another to execute or apprehend a terroist master mind. No, but I believe we are.

So, instead of your earlier claim that this was supported by commentary statements, you are now admitting that this is your own personal interpretation, with no academic support?

[Boudi]

Boudi, you're a preacher? Cool! Dare I ask if you are affilliated with any particular church? Or are you like the little guy with the long beard that I see every time I go to Honolulu. He sits cross legged on top of a mail box just outside the international market place at night and does his preaching to passers by. I feel sorry for the old guy. I've never seen anyone listening to him. But the Hare Krishnas! The cops have to chase them all over the place. They get such huge crowds by their jumping and noise it blocks the side walks.

Jan,
What's wrong with you and I debating a supposed contradition of your choice? Why insist I go to an atheist site?

I wonder what you make of the prophecy on the Prince of princes fighting and slaughtering that we find in the book of Daniel. Oh and then of course we know from the book of Revelations what Christ will be doing. I have an notion that some have tossed Daniel and Revelations into the garbage. Makes them uncomfortable becuse it's not all love and hugs it contradicts their narrowed view of Jesus.

don't know if it crushes your need to try to belittle, but yes, I'm a local preacher affiliated to a church.  When I say local, one of them takes an hour and a half to drive there....which in England is something.

I'm glad that you can also belittle this man who follows in the tradition of many preachers.  Perhaps the problem isn't his wish topreach but your arrogant condecension.  Glad to see that you're too good.  I think Jesus had something to say about that......