Bin Laden is DEAD!

[Boudi]

'"Sheik Osama didn't build an organization to die when he dies," the statement read. "The university of faith, Quran and jihad from which bin Laden graduated will not close its doors," it added.'

what a surprise, there were more than Bin Laden involved!  Who'd have guessed!  So the merrygo round continues, with people celebrating and making a fuss as folk from one side and then the other continue killing and maiming.  9/11 in response for 1980s, Afghanistan in exchange for 9/11, 7/7 in exchange for Afghanistan, Iraq in exchange for 1990s...so much for the celebrations.  We've achieved so much!

[Jan]

You were right Jan, I was talking about your own dignity!

Ah that was JJ saying I'm thinking that Boudi was referring to the dignity of the posters on here. but I agree with what JJ & you  put anyway 

[pow wow]

Poor dear Osama, he's now fish food. Fish food contaminated with lead.

[tranchiebabe]

Poor dear Osama, he's now fish food. Fish food contaminated with lead.

Hopefully the fish won't get indigestion!

[pow wow]

Yes Tangnefedd, I worry about the fish that are eating Osama. I worry about the fishermen that will catch and eat the fish that ate Osama.LOL!

[pow wow]

Well ecu, I believe Osama was a monster manufactured out of the terror manual of Islam. I believe that you could have spent the last ten years smothering Osama with hugs, love and best wishes and he would still be a terrorist out to kill us infedels. If you can ever bring yourself to realize evil and sin exist then it might open youy eyes to the reality that at times evil must be fought with killing force. Peace and love and groovy man won't change some people and I have no problem in those people who do us harm being taken out. Peace should be our goal but hey I've read the play book. It's going to get much worse before our Saviour returns.

[AndyHB]

i've a feelin am gonna be takin this line by line...so here we is

ecu, not sure about others, but I find it very hard to read green type against the light grey background of quoted sections of posts.  It might help if you were to place '

''

' markers around each section of a quoted post, rather than including your own remarks within the overall quoted passage.

But innocent by whose standards, Eli?  Those of the West, whose actions over the past centuries have often been based on greed, power, pride even, in some cases, revenge all too often meted out on completely innocent people? ...
When all is taken into account, who is really responsible for the actions of both Hussein and Bin Laden?

i got a bit lost here is this all about original sin or something?

you are blaming the low wage cotton workers in inngland for poverty in india?...  or something

or the people in the twin towers? for the actions of the C18?

i'm not sure if you are  supporting revenge attacks or what?


GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,

This has nothing to do with original sin, ecu.  It has everything to do with imperial economic policies (and not simply British ones) that decimated the cottage-industries of what are now developing nations such as India, Sri Lanka, as well as several African Far Eastern nations, in favour of their raw materials being brought to the West, turned into finished articles and then returned to their homelands at a price.  This is part of why Gandhi was so keen to wear homespun cotton clothes, because it meant that the British - previously the British East India Company - didn't get any income from the production of that clothe.  Technically, this was illegal under the laws of the Raj.  I don't deny that the Indian setup prior to the British arriving was particularly fair, but at least the citizens of the various principalities were able to make and sell their own goods.

As for my final sentence, we HAVE to remember that both Saddam and Bin Laden were initially supported, funded and armed by the West - largely America, France and the UK - so 'we' are as responsible for what they eventually became as they were themselves.

[JJ]

It's going to get much worse before our Saviour returns.

And it has.

[AndyHB]

Well ecu, I believe Osama was a monster manufactured out of the terror manual of Islam.

PW, the facts show this to be largely untrue.  As this extract from the Wikipedia article on him shows, bin Laden was as much a product of American funding and arms as he was of Islam.

After leaving college in 1979, bin Laden arrived to Pakistan and joined Abdullah Azzam to take part in the Soviet war in Afghanistan.[62][63] During Operation Cyclone from 1979 to 1989, the United States provided financial aid and weapons to the mujahideen leaders[64] through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). Bin Laden met and built relations with Hamid Gul, who was a three star general in the Pakistani army and head of the ISI agency. Although the United States provided the money and weapons, the training of militant groups was entirely done by the Pakistani Armed Forces and the ISI.

By 1984, bin Laden and Azzam established Maktab al-Khidamat, which funneled money, arms and fighters from around the Arab world into Afghanistan. Through al-Khadamat, bin Laden's inherited family fortune[65] paid for air tickets and accommodation, paid for paperwork with Pakistani authorities and provided other such services for the jihadi fighters. Bin Laden established camps inside Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in Pakistan and used it to train volunteer fighters against the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. It was during his time in Pakistan that he began wearing camouflage-print jackets and carrying a Russian-made assault rifle.

It was only after[/quote] the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and King Fahd and the Saudi Defence Minister turned down an offer to help defend Saudi Arabia (his homeland) from Bin Laden in favour of American forces, that BL began his attacks on the West.

[ecuworrier]

Well ecu, I believe Osama was a monster manufactured out of the terror manual of Islam. I believe that you could have spent the last ten years smothering Osama with hugs, love and best wishes and he would still be a terrorist out to kill us infedels. If you can ever bring yourself to realize evil and sin exist then it might open youy eyes to the reality that at times evil must be fought with killing force. Peace and love and groovy man won't change some people and I have no problem in those people who do us harm being taken out. Peace should be our goal but hey I've read the play book. It's going to get much worse before our Saviour returns.

so you are suggesting that it's ok for the US to recruit propagandise young men of middle eastern origin to teach them about  the 'justification of killing people for political expediency and gain and dying for that cause ... but it's not ok for them to do their own thinking about how they extrapolate those ideas......  refer again to Andy HB's wiki-angle

you really are missing the point of Jesus Peace Mission....  some flower power hippies have certainly got themselves hipped up and spun into a movement but that though it was a movement of not killing folks and various areas of social justice (but by no means all) Jesus has much more Powerful forces and yes like the kind of hippy slogans... it really is all about L.O.V.E.

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,

[ecuworrier]

i've a feelin am gonna be takin this line by line...so here we is

ecu, not sure about others, but I find it very hard to read green type against the light grey background of quoted sections of posts.  It might help if you were to place '

''

' markers around each section of a quoted post, rather than including your own remarks within the overall quoted passage.

take your point about colour hopefully that is better

But innocent by whose standards, Eli?  Those of the West, whose actions over the past centuries have often been based on greed, power, pride even, in some cases, revenge all too often meted out on completely innocent people? ...
When all is taken into account, who is really responsible for the actions of both Hussein and Bin Laden?

This has nothing to do with original sin, ecu.  It has everything to do with imperial economic policies (and not simply British ones) that decimated the cottage-industries of what are now developing nations such as India, Sri Lanka, as well as several African Far Eastern nations, in favour of their raw materials being brought to the West, turned into finished articles and then returned to their homelands at a price.  This is part of why Gandhi was so keen to wear homespun cotton clothes, because it meant that the British - previously the British East India Company - didn't get any income from the production of that clothe.  Technically, this was illegal under the laws of the Raj.  I don't deny that the Indian setup prior to the British arriving was particularly fair, but at least the citizens of the various principalities were able to make and sell their own goods.so you are suggesting the revenge attacks have to do with indian cotton trade?  i have no idea how your analysid stands up on the basis of historical supposition though i tend to disafgree with thesentiments but hey... tha's another story/// i don't see how any of that has to do with 9/11 personally or whethter the victims of twin towers were involved in stuff that relates to the C18 or Ghandi but hey makes for colour i guess

As for my final sentence, we HAVE to remember that both Saddam and Bin Laden were initially supported, funded and armed by the West - largely America, France and the UK - so 'we' are as responsible for what they eventually became as they were themselves.but we are sitting here writing about it what has that to do with EliB's passionate outburst?

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,

[AndyHB]

take your point about colour hopefully that is better [/color]

that purple is even worse!!  If you use the quoting system properly, you don't need to change the colour of the text, as it will appear in white on a dark grey background outside the 'quote' area (see your own response to Pow-Wow immediately before this one to me).

so you are suggesting the revenge attacks have to do with indian cotton trade?  i have no idea how your analysid stands up on the basis of historical supposition though i tend to disafgree with thesentiments but hey... tha's another story/// i don't see how any of that has to do with 9/11 personally or whethter the victims of twin towers were involved in stuff that relates to the C18 or Ghandi but hey makes for colour i guess

ecu, you need to appreciate that we are talking about 2 different but related issues.  I am not suggesting that the revenge attacks, by bin laden on the West or by America on the Taliban and Al Quaeda, are directly related to issues such as British policies in India in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries but there is a background distrust towards Britain and the West as a result of the actions of the French, German and British colonial powers (especially) that fosters such actions.  You need to remember that, in the case of Iraq and Iran, the British civil service office-bods created the two nations by effectively drawing a line across the old protectorate with no consideration of tribal or ethnic grouping boundaries (hence we have Kurds in Iraq and Turkey).

bin Laden's role is that of an ally who has turned on the hands (America) that fed him.

As for my final sentence, we HAVE to remember that both Saddam and Bin Laden were initially supported, funded and armed by the West - largely America, France and the UK - so 'we' are as responsible for what they eventually became as they were themselves.

but we are sitting here writing about it what has that to do with EliB's passionate outburst?

A lot!!  It is all too easy to lay the blame 4square at the feet of bin Laden - as Eli and Pow Wow seem to do - conveniently forgetting that, as mentioned above, bin Laden was fostered, financed and armed as a counter weight to the Russians and then the Taliban in Afghanistan.

[pow wow]

ecu, it is about love and to be exact it is about agape love. I think you are a bit off on the type of love you are promoting. Do you actualy believe Christ would have us open our front door to let a murder in or stand there and do nothing if the murderer is already in your home? Was Christ preaching the love you are? I don't think so. Christ would expect us to stop a killer even if it means killing him. If you walked into a house a saw a man killing a person do use your type of love to stop it. You could try but I wouldn't recommend it. No you stop it even if you have to take a life. A guilty one mind you.
Oh, so Osama was recruited by Jimmy Carter was he? Could you provide evidence that Osama was recruited by Uncle Sam. I know he was supplied with the tools to fight Russians but he wasn't recruited. And those fellas took money and arms from where ever they could get them. No recruiting except by they themselves. And the truth is Osama was a weathly man he did much of the suppling all on his own.
You know a conspiracy theory is history for idiots.

[AndyHB]

ecu, it is about love and to be exact it is about agape love. I think you are a bit off on the type of love you are promoting. Do you actualy believe Christ would have us open our front door to let a murder in or stand there and do nothing if the murderer is already in your home?

PW, I think that you are stepping into the middle of the situation and debating from that middle point forward, rather than from the start of the situation.  It is clear that bin Laden was informed and - yes, inspired - by certain sections of the Koran, but he was initially encouraged and supported, and even financed in the early days.  as such, he became what he became partly through the influence of the West and, as such, we need to accept our responsibility for that.  I realise that it was the governments of the day who were directly involved but democracy means that all share in that responsibility.

[Jan]

ecu, it is about love and to be exact it is about agape love. I think you are a bit off on the type of love you are promoting. Do you actualy believe Christ would have us open our front door to let a murder in or stand there and do nothing if the murderer is already in your home? Was Christ preaching the love you are? I don't think so. Christ would expect us to stop a killer even if it means killing him. If you walked into a house a saw a man killing a person do use your type of love to stop it.

Now what does Jesus actually say (according to the bible)  about resisting an evil person?

Matthew 5:39

Now agape love =  selfless love of one person for another without sexual implications (especially love that is spiritual in nature) ... just thought I would point that out 

dictionary definition of agape love

Jesus talks about loving enemies (Matt 5:44) and what happens if you 'live by the sword' (in other words to use weapons to kill others .. and that means all of us not just the 'terrorists')

What would Jesus do? I believe he would try and talk with the person doing the wrong - try to make peace, try to calm things down rather than make matters worse.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.