Bin Laden is DEAD!

[Boudi]

Where Bin Laden was concerned it was a state of war against terror.

Please define terror.

[AndyHB]

I wonder if those who think Bin Laden should have had mercy would have felt so kindly disposed towards him if one of their rellies had been killed on 9/11?

Principles and beliefs often override feelings, T.  At the same time, I woulkd question your use of the phrase 'so kindly disposed towards': I think that arrest, trial and the inevitable sentencing to death might actually have been a harsher treatment.  There is no sitting around and being humiliated in shooting on sight.

Also have to agree, surprise surprise, with the comments that Rowan Williams has made.

Terrorists usually have to face trial? No they don't. They usually die in a shoot out.

The majority of terrorist 'foot-soldiers' might die in shoot-outs, but not terrorist 'generals', pow wow.  Just look at some of the Balkan leaders, etc., even Saddam Hussain.

This is starting to get creepy. I'm getting the feeling there's some closet Osama sympathizers here abouts.

What I find creepy, is the way in which some people scream about the injustice that Osama and Al-Queda mete out, yet then scream again when the injustice they accuse such folk of, is meted out to them.  As several folk have already noted: 2 wrongs do not make a right.

If one lives by the sword it's only fitting that you die by it.

very Old Testament!

[Jan]

If one lives by the sword it's only fitting that you die by it.

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" ~ Matthew 26:52

A good enough reason for us all to put our 'swords' away?

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' ~ Matthew 5:21

"Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the LORD your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly." ~ Deuteronomy 16:18

A good enough reason for us all to put our swords away?

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" ~ Mahatma Gandhi

A good enough reason for us all to put our swords away?

[pow wow]

Boudi,
Terror? Well I believe terror is what those poor souls who were so overcome with smoke that they threw themselve off the World Trade Centre and were desperately clawing at the air on the way to their death in a useless attempt to save themselves. Terror is how those people in the buildgs felt as they looked out the windows of the stairwells and saw these people shoot by clawing at the air. Terror is what made the citizens on the ground scream and run for their lives when they saw those buildings start to fall. Terror is in the voices of those trapped in the building desperateley pleading over the cell phone for their mom or dad to send some one to save them. No Boudi, terror is not the monster under your bed. Terror is how my cousin felt until she was assured her daughter, a flight attendant for United Airlines, was not working on any of those planes. America took one of the soldiers of terror out and I thank the Lord for America.

[Martin]

So, as a consequence of this, the Americans struck back with countless acts of terror inflicted on the innocent citizens of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.  How I wish that the acts of terror inflicted upon our western societies would teach us not to do the same to others, but is has not done so.  Instead we, with our hugely better technology, have inflicted far worse than we ever received.  And you, Pow Wow, are part of the public opinion that has made it possible.

[AndrewF]

Eli - 'that no matter how long it takes to avenge - even nearly 10 years - they won't escape justice!!'
Avenge or extract revenge? Vengeance (under either name) is not the same as justice.
The burial site is actually against Islamic law in that unless there is NO chance of burial on land he should not have been buried at sea.

PW - 'Pakistan is a sovereign nation but so what.' If you take this sort of attitude you are lowering yourself to the standard of the terrorists. It is only if we demonstrate in all our actions that we are better than them that we can make that claim. If the man was unarmed (as the US govt is currently admitting he was - though that has already changed once and could change again!) then he should not have been shot - even as an enemy combatant. Unless you uphold the law no matter how hard that is then you are no better than the terrorist.
 Pakistan may well have been harboring him - we will never know - but a better option would have been to have someone on the ground observing and to have informed their govt just before the choppers crossed into their airspace and got permission for the mission. - And don't try to tell me that there are no CIA agents in the area ho could be instructed to 'loiter' somewhere near that building!
If the Pakistani govt was truly opposing terrorism thy would have given permission for the raid, without informing BL.  Had they refused everyone would have known that they were harboring him, and the US would have been totally justified in ignoring their objections. If they had said yes, and informed BL the CIA agent could have dealt with him as he tried to escape. The law must be observed at all times in dealing with terrorists otherwise you will have more not fewer terrorist attacks.
Properly trained soldiers (if given the order to take alive if possible, but to shoot if necessary - as currently appears to have been the case in this operation) should have been able to see that he had no weapon and have not shot him up so badly that the pictures of his body were too 'gruesome' to be released!
'You know we have been with you in every war since our confederation and before.' yes... albeit rather belatedly in a couple of important cases!
'So all the soldiers in Afghanistan are asking for it?' Yes - since they volunteered for the army, they were 'de facto' asking for it.
'America took one of the soldiers of terror out and I thank the Lord for America.' It's not what you do it's the way that you do it..... The man should have been take alive and tried before a court, not shot to blazes when he was not even armed! There was enough manpower there to achieve this from what reports I have heard seem to imply. Take for example his wife - they shot her in the leg when she tried to com between them & BL.
NO- frankly the raid was a ****-up as a result of tiger-happy vengeful poorly trained soldiers.

[Boudi]

Boudi,
Terror? Well I believe terror is what those poor souls who were so overcome with smoke that they threw themselve off the World Trade Centre and were desperately clawing at the air on the way to their death in a useless attempt to save themselves. Terror is how those people in the buildgs felt as they looked out the windows of the stairwells and saw these people shoot by clawing at the air. Terror is what made the citizens on the ground scream and run for their lives when they saw those buildings start to fall. Terror is in the voices of those trapped in the building desperateley pleading over the cell phone for their mom or dad to send some one to save them. No Boudi, terror is not the monster under your bed. Terror is how my cousin felt until she was assured her daughter, a flight attendant for United Airlines, was not working on any of those planes. America took one of the soldiers of terror out and I thank the Lord for America.

and the children of Iraq and Afghanistan, who have nothuing to do with it, are they brave enough not to feel it? is innocence allied to nationality?

[Boudi]

So, as a consequence of this, the Americans struck back with countless acts of terror inflicted on the innocent citizens of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.  How I wish that the acts of terror inflicted upon our western societies would teach us not to do the same to others, but is has not done so.  Instead we, with our hugely better technology, have inflicted far worse than we ever received.  And you, Pow Wow, are part of the public opinion that has made it possible.

amen bro

[Boudi]

Oh, and Amen to Andrew too.

I think what we are finding is that we are getting a world that is watching and saying 'while we understand that you were vengeful, you were also wrong, and could have done things differently.  While we understand why you did what you did, you have to understand that you have lost the moral highground.'

insert quote using 'barrel of a gun'  feel smug.

[pow wow]

Are my fellow Canadians targeting innocent civilians in Afghanistan? Are the Americans targeting innocent civilians, are you Brits? No, how foolish and shame on anyone who might suggest it.  Do the innocent suffer and die because of wars that have to be fought? Unfortuately that's the reality and horror of war. So what to do? Lay down our guns and go home. Load all you well meaning folks onto planes and fly you over to Afghanistan, the Sudan, Gaza, Syria where you can deliver your messages of peace and love. I will pray for your success when you actually follow your convictions. My fear is that you will soon return with the realization that yes, evil and sin do exist and they do not bow to love and let's all be friends. We could have cried stop please as Serbia committed genocide, but only a fool would have belived in that message working. There is a greater war going on and it involves not only our mortal bodies but it involves the spirit world.

[JJ]

So when the practical argument is moving away from Christian principles, and you know it pow wow, you now have to invoke magical thinking with talk of the 'spiritual' world.

In each and every case our spirit side is on the side of peace and reconciliation.  It's our mortal bodies that cause war and terror.

[Boudi]

Are my fellow Canadians targeting innocent civilians in Afghanistan? Are the Americans targeting innocent civilians, are you Brits? No, how foolish and shame on anyone who might suggest it.  Do the innocent suffer and die because of wars that have to be fought? Unfortuately that's the reality and horror of war. So what to do? Lay down our guns and go home. Load all you well meaning folks onto planes and fly you over to Afghanistan, the Sudan, Gaza, Syria where you can deliver your messages of peace and love. I will pray for your success when you actually follow your convictions. My fear is that you will soon return with the realization that yes, evil and sin do exist and they do not bow to love and let's all be friends. We could have cried stop please as Serbia committed genocide, but only a fool would have belived in that message working. There is a greater war going on and it involves not only our mortal bodies but it involves the spirit world.

The question is more about who are they killing, these people who you you pledge support to, rather than who are they targetting.  We know from 'friendly fire' who they are killing.  |As JJ said, this is not Christian thinking at all, so where is your moral compass in this battle?  It's not based in the words of Jesus, which is what I would be expecting.

[AndyHB]

America took one of the soldiers of terror out and I thank the Lord for America.

But didn't the same country you thank the Lord for, actively support and - arguably make - Bin Laden the 'soldier of terror' that he became?  Do you thank the Lord for this as well?

[administrator]

[Martin]

Are my fellow Canadians targeting innocent civilians in Afghanistan? Are the Americans targeting innocent civilians, are you Brits? No, how foolish and shame on anyone who might suggest it.  Do the innocent suffer and die because of wars that have to be fought? Unfortuately that's the reality and horror of war.

I think that the the Americans have targeted innocent civilians.  Wedding parties and residential areas have been hit, many cruise missile attacks on 'enemy targets' will have killed innocent people who just happened to be there. OK they say that these were 'inevitable' mistakes and that in many cases there will have been non-innocent parties killed in the same offensive, but the sheer number of innocent people who have died shows a callous disregard for these people's lives.  Had these people been American citizens living in New York or Washington their lives would have been much more precious.  From the perspective of those who flew aircraft into buildings in the US, they were targetting the political structures in the US, hitting back at the capitalist system which has done much evil around the world.  As far as those who flew the aircraft were concerned, the civilians killed in the Twin Towers were merely the 'inevitable' casualties of such an offensive.

This is the problem with the belief that the end justifies the means - a belief held by both sides.  Often the end offers far less good than the harm done by the means to achieve it.   Is the world a safer or better place because so many have been killed? Does America have fewer enemies now than it did before so many innocent people were blown to bits, burned, blinded, maimed or bereaved?