'God-breathed' = 'God-recommended'?

[AndyHB]

No problem, Andy. We're all living busy lives these days. I'll wait for your complete response before addressing your rebuttals.

Hi Tabba, just to let you know that I haven't forgotten this thread.  I'm thinking of starting up a separate thread that addresses some of your points from a more 'point zero' viewpoint (you'll see what I mean when it appears), but currently, I'm onto the 4th set of accounts I've been asked to do in a week!!  The first 3 were for voluntary/charity organisations I'm involved with; this one, far more simple, is for the children's group that my daughter runs at church!!

[Martin]

But science still can't tell me why I found it satisfying.

I suspect that, that's because our feelings, our likes and dislikes, are very complex things.  If we could understand the role of all the brain chemicals, if we could be aware of all the interractions between brain cells, know all the memories and put all of these into some supercomputer which could tell us what we're going to think next, that computer might be able to give us a scientific explanation for our likes and dislikes, but it would be so complex that, even if we could understand such an explanation, it would take us so long to do so that we'd be old decrepit people by the time we got to the end of the explanation for just one 'like' or 'dislike'.

So we need a shorthand for talking about such things - things of the heart that we know really matter to us. Things that bring us pleasure and real joy, things that make life worth living, bring those feelings of real solid satisfaction without any hollowness of the sort we get when we serve only ourselves. 

That, ISTM, is really what talk about God is. 'God' need not be some supernaural 'other' who is outside the universe looking in and changing things, 'God' can equally mean something within us and between us, something that is an integral part of us, both as individuals and in community. 'God' need not be a powerful creator of galaxies and planets, but rather a creative power whithin us that changes the world to be a better place.

[AndyHB]

That, ISTM, is really what talk about God is. 'God' need not be some supernaural 'other' who is outside the universe looking in and changing things, 'God' can equally mean something within us and between us, something that is an integral part of us, both as individuals and in community. 'God' need not be a powerful creator of galaxies and planets, but rather a creative power whithin us that changes the world to be a better place.

And who said that God has to be "an 'other' who is outside the universe looking in", Martin?  Suffice for now - but this is partly why I want to take the discussion out of this thread on Scripture, to a new one on the nature of God, etc.

[Martin]

Strewth you're tiresome sometimes Andy. Many Christians see God as supernatural and external to the universe. Yes they also believe that God works within the universe, and within themselves, but as a powerful supernatural 'other' rather than something which is simply integral to human makeup. 

[AndrewF]

Martin - sorry to be so long answering! You said "I think Jesus' remarks are intended to make people think about the actions of the heart, and I agree that Jesus is contradicting the law - which is interesting because, if he made those remarks, then he did so before he was crucified, that is, before he had made any once for all sacrifice which, so say, removed the obligation to follow the law."
I did not actually say that Jesus was contradicting the Law. What I was saying was that the vision Paul had was God contradicting it's interpretation - or possibly better to say updating it.
Jesus often went against the Pharisaic interpretation of the law which is what he was doing here. That is different from countermanding the laws themselves.
Tabba, you ask "Why does a person have faith in something for which they have no evidence is in existence?"
It is very difficult to explain to someone who has not had the experience, but I have, on several occasions, had experiences which can not be rationally explained, (or for which the likelihood is so extremely small as to be negligible). The only explanation I can give which satisfies my scientifically trained mind is that something outside our understanding of nature was behind those experiences. That something I call God.
Similarly, this universe is the result of the 'big bang' - or so we are told! (and the explanation does make sense...) OK - but where did the matter which was needed and the required pressure and heat come from in the first place. You can't get ought from nought - as my Physics teacher used to say. People refer to 'the laws of nature' being all that is required for the world to happen and for humanity to evolve on it once the big bang had happened - but how were those 'laws' set? It is my belief that there is something outside the 'natural system' as we know it which brought it into being. That something is (again) what I call God. Our (not just yours and mine, but mine and anyone else's) concepts of what that 'God' is may well be different, but i really do think that there has to have been a 'prime mover' which was not part of the system that is the universe.
An example of science not having an answer *YET* could be dousing (or 'divining' - for water or many other things. I accept that, eventually, an answer might be found to this problem, but I defy anyone ever to answer the question of where the matter making up the universe came from in the first place!

"Life exists, and can be proven to exist" - Tell that to an existentialist! he will reply that only HIS life can be proven to exist - everything else could be a product of his imagination...

"Can you explain why so many people from other religions claim that their god healed them, when they clearly do not believe in or pray to the christian god?"
They are the same God - just different concepts of what that God actually is - God must be beyond our understanding (by definition, since, assuming there is a God, it is God that created the universe and therefore us) so it is not unreasonable for one group's beliefs of what that God is, to be different from another group's.

JJ - "Real love has a high level of oxytocin associated with it " - is that love or lust

[JJ]

Gosh I'd forgotten I wrote that, but yes real love and oxytocin.  That hormone is released during childbirth and after, engendering in the mother intense feelings of love for the baby.

[ecuworrier]

I'm not sure of what you are trying to say ecu....
Nor, on reading and re-reading do I see any way in which the two genealogies are supposed to belong to two different people, they are both clearly given as belonging to Joseph, and are clearly contradictory.  Now to me, this doesn't say that the scripture is false, it says that the message behind it isn't an obvious one.  If we are given two contradictory lists then it just says to me that we shouldn't be getting hung up on the lists, they are unimportant.  The family from which Jesus came is neither here nor there

hey... nowt to do 'bout geneologies unless you is inclusive on the Holy Spirit as GOD breathes into that clay pile about to be Adam the same Spirit as Breathed into us all that gives new life?... no i wiz writin on the theme of GOD Breathed word.. that word being Spirit at least the active GOD given move in ..... as distinct from those bits of black on a papyrus....   i have not i have to admit gone back to the women priests line to round out context... 

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,

[ecuworrier]

Even when I was a 'born again', all those many years ago, in the back of my mind there was always doubt. When I could no longer keep the doubts at bay my faith slipped away.

Bless you!

doubt is very real... and the question is what does one do now.....   it's such a lonely place.....   i think sometimes we really just want to be part of something so when stuff doesn't pan out or meet our reasons for being that place or that position or that commitment then well where do we go with that...  i feel very lucky to have had so many obstacles so the whole commitment thing has had to be a personal one....  as far as the instution called church is concerned that is hardly something that rates highly enough for me... as for being 'born again'... i was listening last night to a born again christian ... how did we know we was listenin on the radio to a born again christian ... well she introduced herself so... and something about the way she spoke about herself and with sureness of foot about the reason she had phoned in ...made me glad for some bible bashing atheists who came on afterwards and  who made a whole lot of sense...  about Grace of the Spirit and GOD and all that....me i listen to the question 'are you born again?' with abject horror... cos to the born again it should be perfectly obvious to the not born again it should be perfectly obvious......  so the question is futile and is a disguised wquestion do you belong to my church and the answer is probably no but by default of Jesus cos Jesus has so many default positions that challenge and hone us...  to me born again is not a label we can carry for ourselves... born again is a state of freedom born of an errefutable encounter with the Holy Spirit... GOD has many ways of achieving that same result ie you sign up ... when actually you been signed up for you without your permission even it's plain as day statement of fact.... what i have marvelled at and as i been on this walk for some time one sees stuff recognises it ....  there is a 'no faith' position to faith....  and it's the place of disbelief.... now as far as belief is concerned i believe in being convicted by the Holy Spirit... it is not some arbitrary position of judgement afterall we can't see what we are believing in all the time but being born again brings us into the Supernatural Realm of sightedness...   (you can look at the descriptions in the Gospels which completely fascinate me .. i do suggest reading in the Amplified translation .... passages like the Baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3.....  John 3; 4 and so on Mark 4-6 Luke 10 stories that make the whole thing of Revelation something that is there for the taking but we can't control ourselves but somehow Jesus makes accessible to us)  it changes us and we are aware of that.... for every step we can step forwards indeed quite often many of us find ourselves a little overwhelmed and start stepping back to where we had terra firma a bit like walking down the slope in a swimming pool....  the place where we were though is us of old and sometimes the place of i don't believe cos i have not seen is all too stark a reality and it doesn't half feel foul and the church on the whole is absolutely crap at helping or sorting stuff out for the one who is feeling a little overcome... look i can't live your faith for you and you can't live anyone elses ... that is the first point of liberation and it's not down to you as much as it is down to GOD and there is that mysterious offering we use the word relationship that gives you the absolute certainty and permission that you alone  can indeed walk right into the throne room and have it out with GOD .. whatever it is... and that's all there is to it for all the dressing up and dressing down that the church and its religious folk gets up to

look the one hope i have for you is that you find that Peace that Peace that gives you a sense of homeness

when i found that.....  it completely undercut anything i had ever known and it continues to......  it had indeed found me under completely erratic and completely unexpected circumstances but the moment it all made sense now- ... i knew i was home and was glad to be .. and for all that the church and other christians completely blind us with the science of their planks .. no-one can take that experience from me the experience of GOD's LOVE the 'i mean business with you' Peace


like when in a game a really loving father/ or loving other trusted bigger person (than myself) says.... ready or not i am coming.... that hide and seek experience 

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,