'God-breathed' = 'God-recommended'?

[AndyHB]

On the 'Women Priests' thread, Boudi makes this comment -

It's a bit odd that if this is the case that it's been put into the Bible, especially since many belive it to be 'God-breathed'.  If God was inspiring in it in truth then surely God would breath it right first time!

Does 'God-breathed' necessarily mean that something is 'God-recommended'?  For instance, the story of David's adultery with Beersheba is quite heavily covered throughout the OT - so does it's inclusion mean that it is blessed by God?  Of course not; it is there as a cautionary tale.

I believe that people who either knock the Scriptures, or accept them 'nem-con', it the way that we do have from some people on this forum, on the grounds of 'its there, so it must be right' are missing the point.

[Martin]

It's a good point Andy.  For example, where the Bible tells us that God commanded something, should we take it that God actually did command it, or should we allow the possibility that it was written by people who were not perfect and might have produced their own set of rules saying that God commanded it.  That wouldn't necessarily mean that the Bible isn't exactly the way God wants it to be.  God may well have wanted this man-made law to be recorded and wanted it to be recorded with all the 'God said this' and 'God commanded that' stuff just so we could see how fickle humans are, and how they will always twist religion to suit themselves.  How they will always put words into the mouth of God.

How do we tell whether the  rules in the Bible are man-made rules, and which are real commandments from God?

[Boudi]

Exactly Martin.  I don't think there is any intimation that the story of David and Bathsheba is a recommendation for adultery, and it's odd that in all the cases given you choose that one.  We were talkig about Paul, and how, under the supposed inspiration of Jesus had one viewpoint, and then came around to another viewpoint.  The belief that the end of the world is imminent has brought people to strange beliefs, and when the world doesn't end it makes people move on, yet it seems that they know the end of the world is happening because God has influenced them to believe this.

'God breathed' is a bit of a get out.,  It's a weasel word really.  It's a spare ace held up the sleeve to get God off the hook when you need to, or to boost scripture when it seems to be right.

[AndyHB]

We were talkig about Paul, and how, under the supposed inspiration of Jesus had one viewpoint, and then came around to another viewpoint. 

I realised that, Boudi, and that is why I moved this debate to its own thread, especially as I said on 'tother thread that I don't believe that he 'came around to another viewpoint', but rather acknowledged that - eg - Roman culture and Ephesian culture where different and therefore the Christian faith had to deal with different issues or similar issues in different ways.

I picked on the David/Beersheba incident because it is SO blatantly an example of 'cautionary tale', yet is still included in the record, suggesting that not all the Biblical record is as God wanted for humanity.

How do we tell whether the  rules in the Bible are man-made rules, and which are real commandments from God?

Martin, in some cases, its obvious - for instance, Paul's caveat in 1 Corinthians 7:8, where he makes it clear (contrast with 7:10) that this was his own opinion.  In other cases, such as parts of the Old Testament, it is obvious from even a fairly basic reading that the instructions are man-made - think, for example, of the laws about working on the Sabbath - because they run opposite to or at least at odds with earlier instructions, such as the 10 Commandments.

[Martin]

In other cases, such as parts of the Old Testament, it is obvious from even a fairly basic reading that the instructions are man-made - think, for example, of the laws about working on the Sabbath - because they run opposite to or at least at odds with earlier instructions, such as the 10 Commandments.

Which instructions are these Andy, that run contrary to the 10 commandments?

[AndyHB]

Which instructions are these Andy, that run contrary to the 10 commandments?

Exodus 20: 8-11 outlines the way the Israelites were to behave on the Sabbath.  However, by the time of Christ, the definition of 'work' had been so stretched (so that you couldn't walk more than a certain distance; you couldn't take your donkey out to graze; you couldn't cook anything; ...) as to make a mockery of the instruction in Exodus.  Even today, in certain Jewish communities, the act of flicking a light switch on (or off) is regarded as 'work' and therefore not done.

Doesn't Jesus tell the Pharisees that 'the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath'? (Mark 2: 27).  Didn't he tell them that ' ... it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath' (Matthew 12; Luke 6 - rescuing an animal and healing on the Sabbath, respectively).  I can't remember the exact figure, but the laws that Jesus so often refers to when arguing against the Pharisees number several hundred and had been added to the original 'law' over the generations.

[Martin]

Exodus 20: 8-11 outlines the way the Israelites were to behave on the Sabbath.  However, by the time of Christ, the definition of 'work' had been so stretched (so that you couldn't walk more than a certain distance; you couldn't take your donkey out to graze; you couldn't cook anything; ...) as to make a mockery of the instruction in Exodus.  Even today, in certain Jewish communities, the act of flicking a light switch on (or off) is regarded as 'work' and therefore not done.

Right, so you are saying that Jesus wasn't so much doing away with the laws about the Sabbath (apart from a general instruction not to work found in the Ten Commandments), but that the parts of the Bible where those laws are written are examples of the sort of stuff where humans had written down their own thoughts on what God meant and ascribed it to God.  So for example you are saying that it was never God's will that people couldn't gather firewood on the Sabbath, that it never was God's will that you shouldn't light a fire to cook something on the Sabbath, that those laws never were God's will?

[JJ]

I've always found it strange that Orthodox Jewish neighbours of friends of mine in London ask them to come and switch on their lights or heating for them on the Sabbath - isn't that missing the point of such rules?

[tranchiebabe]

I must admit I have always found the expression 'God breathed' a little bit silly!

[AndyHB]

I must admit I have always found the expression 'God breathed' a little bit silly!

Why?  Isn't that what you are saying that someone has 'inspired' you to do something - after all, it's what 'inspired' means.  Mind you, that is why most people refer to 'God-inspired' - I only used 'God-breathed' because that was how Boudi had worded the comment he made.

[tranchiebabe]

As you would expect I am of the opinion ALL inspiration is of human origin, including that which inspired the writing of the Bible.

[AndyHB]

Right, so you are saying that Jesus wasn't so much doing away with the laws about the Sabbath (apart from a general instruction not to work found in the Ten Commandments), ...

  I think this is part of the problem, martin.  As far as I am aware, Jesus was NOT doing away with the general instruction not to work - but to rest and recreate/recuperate - but WAS doing away with the other laws that had been added to the core instruction.  I do not see there being 'laws' in the beginning; if anything, there was a law, if that is what people want to call the instruction that appears in the 10 Commandments.

Look at the context in which the instruction is worded - "I - God - rested on the 7th day, so I want you to do the same; it is a way for you as humanity to remember what I did in creation and to recover from the strenuous activities you have done over the past 6 days"

Look, for instance, at Matthew 16:5-12.  Here Jesus tells the disciples to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.  This implies that they were teaching things that were outside the parameters of God's own teaching.  Look, also, at the passage on the 'Seven Woes' later in Matthew (chapter 23) where Jesus speaks out against the way in which the teachers of the law taught one thing and acted in another - 'straining out gnats but swallowing camels'.

whoops, forgot to erase the rest of martin's post!!

[AndyHB]

As you would expect I am of the opinion ALL inspiration is of human origin, including that which inspired the writing of the Bible.

My problem with such a suggestion is that the teaching that we are told comes from Jesus is so far removed from the culture and practices of the people amongst whom he lived -let alone the way in which many other cultures of the time thought - that it would have been impossible for humans to have come up with them.  They weren't incremental changes to thinking, they were dramatic leaps.

[Martin]

OK then Andy, Thank you, you've been very clear.

So, in your view, this passage from Exodus 35, while it is reporting accurately what Moses said, was actually reporting Moses telling the people a bit of a fib because the LORD hadn't commanded the 'not lighting a fire' bit?

Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

And this from Numbers 15.  In your view Moses was fibbing again and the LORD didn't say to Moses "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp" that was just something made up by Moses, which unfortunately resulted in a man's death? And, in this case it is not simply that Moses was fibbing, but the narrative itself is fibbing?

While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.  Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly,  and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp."  So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

[pow wow]

One has to understand what living under the law was and what the age of grace is. Moses was no liar but by Christ's death and resurrection we no longer live under the law. During the OT days forgiveness was dependent on keeping the law. Payment of sin's penalty to satisfy holy justice was done by blood sacrifice. Grace means that sin is not held against the sinner. God the Son is our substitute, Christ died in our place.