heaven and hell

[Martin]

What motive do you think I have in sharing this info with you?

If I'm really honest I'd guess that you seek to justify your beliefs... to yourself.

The UV spectrum? That is just a small part of it. What I gave you was a link to part of the EM spectrum as proposed by Arthur Findley...

...In which he postulates that those who see phenomena that others do not see are doing so because they have the ability to see frequencies just outside the normal human spectrum.  You don't even read the articles you post to support your position.

The vibrations of the etheric world, I am told by my informants there, commence just above those of the physical world. We have confirmation of this through the knowledge obtained from psychic photography and clairvoyance, and from the fact that etheric beings, called ghosts, have been seen from time to time through the ages. Thus their lowest vibrations must be just about touching our normal physical range of sight.

[Martin]

Like you, Martin, I don't agree with what Jan offers here, not because it isn't scientific, but because of what I have seen of it and the damage it does to people.

What Jan believes has not turned her into a homophobe, or someone who thinks that God would be justified in consigning people to eternal torture.  Nor is she someone who tries to justify the oppressive treatment of women found in the Old Testament - all of which I have seen you do.  I have every respect for the loving person that Jan is, and very little for what your religion has turned you into.

[JJ]

However, there are large areas of life where science plays little or no part. 

'Fraid not.

[Jan]

If I'm really honest I'd guess that you seek to justify your beliefs... to yourself.

And where would the logic be in that - given what I have already told you about me already receiving proof (many many times over)?

No - the reason is not for me Martin! It is because when some people cross over, they are lost. They cannot understand what has happened and they don't believe that they are 'dead'. They will try to communicate with those 'living' and wonder why they cannot do so. It would not occur to them that they died physically and are now in Spirit - because their minds are not capable of processing that information (closed minded) or they are in denial and frightened.

They will know that a fundamental change has taken place - and they will experience consciousness. But they refuse to accept they are physically dead. They stubbornly keep on believing that perhaps their mind has gone a little strange - but they keep on DENYING they are dead in the afterlife dimension and they will be confused. Their vibrations of the etheric body will attract others of their level of vibrations - and if they die with lower vibrations - they could experience some kind of horrible existence for thousands of years as we measure time on earth.

from here

Would anyone who is aware there is an afterlife want that as above to happen to anyone else if they knew they could do something to help prevent it? Obviously with some people who have 'made up their minds' there is more chance of 'a teapot orbiting Jupiter' (a favorite quote on the atheist sites that) but while there is still a chance, I will take it in the hope of helping.

Also just to add - we all have lost love ones through physical death. Knowing that our loved ones are still alive and well in Spirit - having that proof/evidence does help to make a great difference. It helps to give some comfort - even though we still miss the physical presence of the loved one.

...In which he postulates that those who see phenomena that others do not see are doing so because they have the ability to see frequencies just outside the normal human spectrum.  You don't even read the articles you post to support your position.

I think you have misunderstood this part a wee bit Martin. Just outside of normal human spectrum or vision can still be within the EM energy field. The diagram link I gave you  shows this.


The vibrations of the etheric world, I am told by my informants there, commence just above those of the physical world. We have confirmation of this through the knowledge obtained from psychic photography and clairvoyance, and from the fact that etheric beings, called ghosts, have been seen from time to time through the ages. Thus their lowest vibrations must be just about touching our normal physical range of sight.

Dr Jan W. Vandersande Ph.D. is a scientist and has a technical background that has nothing to do with spiritual matters - the link below gives more info on the evidence he collected.

link

[Jan]

What Jan believes has not turned her into a homophobe, or someone who thinks that God would be justified in consigning people to eternal torture.  Nor is she someone who tries to justify the oppressive treatment of women found in the Old Testament - all of which I have seen you do.  I have every respect for the loving person that Jan is, and very little for what your religion has turned you into.

Try not to be so harsh on Andy - that doesn't get us anywhere - and Andy isn't a bad person (as you are not a bad person either Martin). Trying to make sense of the Bible can be no easy task - not when there are mistakes in translation and contradictions in there (as well as the accepted abuse of other people)

The thing Christians need to ask themselves is what is negative in giving proof of an afterlife and information from that afterlife, when Christians believe in an afterlife too? Spiritualism (and Christian Spiritualism of course) goes that step further in giving this proof. I don't think there is any other group (apart from paranormal investigators or survivalists) or religion that does this is there? Just knowing more about this can make a great difference to how we live our lives here and now. This life is important but there is more to our existence than this life. If you don't believe me - well that is your choice. I did try to show you ...

[Jan]

However, there are large areas of life where science plays little or no part. 

'Fraid not.

I would say that this would probably depend on where the life is 

  No wild claims that psychic phenomena cannot be true, but a solid assertion that is as unlikely as a teapot orbiting between Mars and Jupiter.

Funny you should say that actually ... just do a google search on the teapot sagittarius Jupiter 

[Martin]

I think you have misunderstood this part a wee bit Martin. Just outside of normal human spectrum or vision can still be within the EM energy field. The diagram link I gave you  shows this.

I've misunderstood?!!! 

[Jan]

[Martin]

Just one of many.

Jan,

There's no point in continuing.  The one article that I picked out of the ones you posted is provably pure baloney.  If people have evolved the power to see things in the EM spectrum just outside normal human vision then it would be easy peasy to check.  Your article writer has done no such checks, he's just picked a hypothesis out of the air and says he beleives it.  Sums it up really.  I will not waste my time on any other articles.

Oh I know you'll reply to this post making out that in some way I'm disrespecting you or something.  But really the kind of twaddle in the article I examined deserves no respect.  It's not science and yet it deliberately masquerades as such.  It is not much different from creation 'science', although I would say that the theology that creationists are attempting to support is much more damaging than your beliefs.

Anyway, have your last word.

[Jan]

Just one of many.

ah yes - I have read quite a bit on Mr Randi - some of it quite laughable really.

Here are some I found - there are no doubt more

debunking skeptics
debunking skeptics again
James Randi's funding
a lawyer on the skeptics

Jan,
There's no point in continuing.  The one article that I picked out of the ones you posted is provably pure baloney.  If people have evolved the power to see things in the EM spectrum just outside normal human vision then it would be easy peasy to check.

Some people can though Martin - that is what I have been trying to tell you. They can give descriptions of the Spirit person they see and give the persons name and connection with the person sitting in front of them in a Spiritualist Church (yes I have experienced this)

 

Your article writer has done no such checks, he's just picked a hypothesis out of the air and says he beleives it.  Sums it up really.  I will not waste my time on any other articles.

 The writer has tried to give an explanation of where in the EMF Spirit vibration falls. There is already enough documented evidence to show the existence of Spirits. There are already many many people who have been given personal proof of the existence of the afterlife.

Oh I know you'll reply to this post making out that in some way I'm disrespecting you or something.

I don't really think this is about me though Martin. It is much more than 'me'

 

But really the kind of twaddle in the article I examined deserves no respect.  It's not science and yet it deliberately masquerades as such. 

Science is just our way of trying to figure things out and trying to understand things. Studying the paranormal or parapsychology is just that. No 'masquerade' just minds being open to learning that there is so much more.

[AndyHB]

Thought this Eskimo (Inuit) proverb apropos to this thread:

Perhaps they are not stars
but rather openings in heaven
where the love of our lost ones
pours through and shines down upon us
to let us know they are happy.

[Jan]

Thought this Eskimo (Inuit) proverb apropos to this thread:

Perhaps they are not stars
but rather openings in heaven
where the love of our lost ones
pours through and shines down upon us
to let us know they are happy.

I like that one - 

"Be humble for you are made of earth.
Be noble for you are made of stars."
 (Serbian proverb)

[AndrewF]

The brain is certainly capable of far more than we (currently) can understand scientifically. Some of us have gifts which are definitely NOT explicable by current knowledge-base. I have no reason to suppose that auras or whatever are outside this possibility, but have had no experience of such things either 1st or 3rd hand (other than on boards like this) - in other words I have never actually experienced anyone seeing an aura. I have experienced the effects of black magic though.... and of healing hands.

[AndyHB]

This article reports Archbishop John Sentamu's response to Stephen Hawking's comments about heaven and the afterlife.

[Jan]

The brain is certainly capable of far more than we (currently) can understand scientifically. Some of us have gifts which are definitely NOT explicable by current knowledge-base. I have no reason to suppose that auras or whatever are outside this possibility, but have had no experience of such things either 1st or 3rd hand (other than on boards like this) - in other words I have never actually experienced anyone seeing an aura. I have experienced the effects of black magic though.... and of healing hands.

What I see (aura's) around people and animals is quite subtle - not as dense as what would be recorded on Kirlian photo's, but it is enough to see that it exists. As we know, some religious paintings show people with 'aura's' around them, so that suggest that the artists perhaps could see them too.

I haven't personally been in contact with dark magic nor would I want to - though I do like black magic chocolates 

There are of course many scientists etc who accepted the afterlife and/or paranormal. Go on - look em' up folks - whether they did or not, would not affect me as I already know the afterlife is for real

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sir William Barrett, Dr Peter Bander, Dr Robert Crookal, Professor John Bockris, John Logie Baird, Professor Arthur Ellison, Dr Peter Fenwick, Professor Festa, Dr Edith Fiore, Arthur Findlay, Professor David Fontana, Dr Amit Goswami , Professor Gustav Geley, Professor Ivor Grattan-Guinesss, Professor Stanislav Grof, Dr Arthur Guirdham, Dr Glen Hamilton, Professor Charles Hapgood, Professor Sylvia Hart-Wright, Professor Ernst Senkowski,  Professor James Hyslop, Institute of Noetic Sciences, Professor William James, Professor Brian Josephson, Dr Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, Sir Oliver Lodge, Drs Jeff and Jody Long, Mark Macy, Ron Pearson (engineer/physics), George Meek, engineer, Dr Raymond Moody, Dr Melvin Morse, Dr Morris Nertherton, Dr Karlis Osis, Dr Hall Puthoff, Dr Dean Radin, Dr Peter Ramster (Psychologist), Edward C Randall (Lawyer), Dr.Konstantine Raudive (left), Drs J.B. and Louisa Rhine, Nobel Laureate Professor Charles Richet, Dr Kenneth Ring, Dr Aubrey Rose, Professor Archie Roy, Dr Michael Sabom, Dr Hans Schaer, Professor Marilyn Schlitz, Dr. Rupert Sheldrake, Judge Dean Shuart, Dr Ian Stevenson, Dr Claude Swanson, Dr Emmanuel Swedenborg, Professor Russell Targ, Professor Charles Tart, Professor Jessica Utts, Dr Pim Van Lommel, Dr Jan W. Vandersande, Professor J.W. Crawford, Professor Wadhams, Prof. Alfred Wallace, Dr Helen Wambach, Dr Carl Wickland, Dr Carla Wills-Brandon, Professor Fred Alan Wolf  Dr Julie Beischel  - Dr Victor Zammit, and many others.

see link
more info

also an interesting link on The 'Big Breed' theory - solves the 'big bang' problems

With regard to healing hands - yes also experienced that, both at Church and as a Reiki healer (did the training many years ago). Also (I probably have mentioned it before) I sometimes have 'flashes' of things which later happen - not all the time though thankfully. Fairly recently I saw the crane that fell down in Liverpool. I saw that about 12 days before it happened. I know I have shared other premontion stuff on the previous boards. There are so many things that happen to which there currently is no explanation for in the 'science'. They still happen though.