heaven and hell

[Jan]

Jesus clearly teaches us about the existence of a place of eternal punishment for unrepentant sinners.

No, that is incorrect 

here is why

The entire concept of eternal or everlasting punishment hinges primarily on a single verse of Scripture--Matthew 25:46. This is the only place in the entire Bible where we find these two words together AND only in some Bibles. There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.

quoted from above link

also please read

why is 'hell' leaving the Bible forever

[AndyHB]

Haven't had time to do a full review, but there are actually 5 different Greek words for 'punishment' or that can be translated 'punishment' - so the article's claim that the pairing of eternal and punishment only occurs once isn't necessarily correct. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words)

Will do a bit more digging once I have done some things that need to be done now around the house!!

Just had a further thought: Nungesser and Amirault acknowledge that the word 'kolasin' used in Matthew 25 can mean chopping off of - as in pruning a branch from a tree. This would seem to be pretty terminal, wouldn't it?  The same word is used in 1 John 4:18. 

The verb 'kolazo', from which the noun 'kolasin' comes from, is also used in Acts 4:21 and 2 Peter 2:9. 

In addition to these, Jesus teaches about the pruning of the vine in John 15 and uses the picture of the unproductive fig tree in Luke 13.

There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.

Convenient that they don't then mention any of the dozen and more by name.  Suspicious.

[Jan]

Haven't had time to do a full review, but there are actually 5 different Greek words for 'punishment' or that can be translated 'punishment' - so the article's claim that the pairing of eternal and punishment only occurs once isn't necessarily correct.

Will do a bit more digging once I have done some things that need to be done now around the house!!

Whatever you find, don't forget to give a link to it Andy so that it can be explored further.

In addition to the link I already added

here is another giving further info.

[Jan]

Haven't had time to do a full review, but there are actually 5 different Greek words for 'punishment' or that can be translated 'punishment' - so the article's claim that the pairing of eternal and punishment only occurs once isn't necessarily correct. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words)

Will do a bit more digging once I have done some things that need to be done now around the house!!

Just had a further thought: Nungesser and Amirault acknowledge that the word 'kolasin' used in Matthew 25 can mean chopping off of - as in pruning a branch from a tree. This would seem to be pretty terminal, wouldn't it?  The same word is used in 1 John 4:18. 

The verb 'kolazo', from which the noun 'kolasin' comes from, is also used in Acts 4:21 and 2 Peter 2:9. 

In addition to these, Jesus teaches about the pruning of the vine in John 15 and uses the picture of the unproductive fig tree in Luke 13.

There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.

Convenient that they don't then mention any of the dozen and more by name.  Suspicious.

Ah - almost missed that you responded by amending your post here Andy.

Yes - the 'kolasin' thing - we went over that I think when tb was on the original Faithspace and Exalt. Age long pruning "These shall go away into age-long pruning" or "These shall go away into age-lasting chastisement" (Matthew 25:46).

This would seem to be pretty terminal, wouldn't it?

When you prune a tree - do you kill it off completely?

I think also that you will find the other translations are mentioned in one of those links 'hell disappears from the bible forever' - again the link has already been shared previously, and  I do remember you commenting on this - unless of course I have misunderstood and you are meaning something different?

[Boudi]

I've pruned willows before now, amd not only does the tree survive, the prunings grow new roots and make more willows!

[Martin]

The idea that either heaven or hell exists, is cultural within the Bible.  Jesus was born at a time when the Greek culture had had some influence on Jewish thinking - a time where there was some discussion between the Pharisees and Saducees as to the existence of an afterlife.

It's not too difficult to understand why the carrot of heaven and the stick of hell were attractive ideas at the time. The Jewish people were suffering, subdued by their Roman overlords.  Jesus message wasn't one of military revolution, but of a change of heart and mind, which, if enough people bought into it, would result in a far better world - heaven on earth if you like.  A world where Love ruled (The Kingdom of Heaven) was an ideal, a goal, something to be aspired to.  When Jesus spoke about it he used very figurative, metaphorical language, incorporating the prevailing ideas of the day, to give a sort of picture of the concept or the dream of a world where the wrongs of humanity were set to right.

A culture under oppression needed that sort of a goal - they needed someone to tell them how to go forward to achieve their 'Kingdom' without trying to rebel and achieve a military liberation from their opressors.  The idea of eternal life was appealing because, for the indiviual, there was a yearning for justice, so the idea that God would come along and punish the bad people and reward the good people was a message their ears really wanted to hear.  But the sad fact is that, when you look deeper than the soundbite, justice can't really work like that. People are partially good and partially bad and a crime once committed isn't negated by the fact that the criminal is punished.  So justice can't really set things to right in the way that the idea of final judgement implies.

Good can't succeed by setting everything to rights by hurting those who did wrong - past wrongs are still there in their effect on us and punishment, if it to have any purpose, has to be about rehabilitation and drawing out a recognition from the offender, and consequently a wish to change.  Punishment that goes on for ever and ever without any hope of that is therefore utter cruelty in itself - it turns the punisher into the evil one.

[AndyHB]

This would seem to be pretty terminal, wouldn't it?

When you prune a tree - do you kill it off completely?

Whilst you don't (or shouldn't) kill off the tree or plant - or what is the point of doing the pruning - you almost always kill the bit you have pruned off.  I agree that, as Boudi says, you can grow new plants from such cuttings, but rarely do they grow unless treated in a special way, such as placing into the ground at the time of cutting.  As such, taking a cutting and pruning are two different things.  One is a removal of dead, damaged/diseased, unproductive material; the other is a careful removal of healthy, material for propagating.  It is rare that something that has pruned will regrow simply lying on the compost heap.  Interestingly, even a cutting isn't a simple regrowth, its a completely new plant.  The regrowth should, if the pruning has been done properly, be on the original plant, and doesn't involve the pruned material 'regenerating' on the same plant.

I think also that you will find the other translations are mentioned in one of those links 'hell disappears from the bible forever' - again the link has already been shared previously, and  I do remember you commenting on this - unless of course I have misunderstood and you are meaning something different?

Can't say that I recognised any of the website you linked to - though I suppose it could have been redesigned over the years - so i'm not sure what you remember me saying about it.  I realise that we have had debates on similar issues before,so that is what you may be remembering.

Have just done a comparison of a couple of AV references to Hell with their NIV equivalents.  Whilst I agree that the four-lettered word 'Hell' is getting 'left out', I'm not sure that the meaning is.  For instance, in Deuteronomy 32:22, the AV says

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

The NIV equivalent is

For a fire will be kindled by my wrath,
   one that burns down to the realm of the dead below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
   and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

I think we need to remember that the versions that are translated purely from the Latin (which was, in itself, a translation of the original Greek [and Aramaic?]) such as the AV, often miss out on the subtleties of the original. 

[AndyHB]

The idea that either heaven or hell exists, is cultural within the Bible.

So cultural within the Bible that it existed in other faiths, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, Jainism and even Confucianism (albeit in a rather different form) for centuries before the Biblical texts were written.

In reincarnational religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism the ultimate aim was to reach such a state of perfection as to allow one's soul to enter Nirvana - that oneness with the Creator - Brahman (for the Hindu), the extinguishing of the fires of greed, hate, etc. for the Buddhist and the freeing of the soul from the obstructiveness of karma for the Jain.

Can't remember exactly how many reincarnations Hindus believe a soul is permitted in order to achieve this - but it numbers in the thousands, at least.

[Jan]

[AndyHB]

Regarding trees - the main living part is still there but has been refined or made better. Similarly, with the human soul - I understand the 'age long pruning' thing to be a metaphor for the learning and experience the human soul goes through on Earth (and other physical realms) and in Spiritual realms, to improve the soul.

I would disagree with this, Jan, simply because there is no suggestion in the Bible that bits of a soul can be divided/pruned from the rest.  I understand the soul to be a discrete, indivisible entity that is the very essence of a person, and that the soul is specific to each individual.

Well yes, both myself and tb shared links to the Tentmaker site previously and you have indeed commented because I remember you doing so 

Sorry, my inability to get my words straight!!  I didn't recognise the specific pages referred to - I have heard plenty about the Tentmaker group, and - yes - we have referenced it in debate before.

By the way, I might have a bit more confidence in the 'what the hell is hell' site if they could spell properly!!  The spelling and punctuation in the first two homepage 'boxes' is well-shot.

As for the claim that the word is a German one, that is stretching the truth.  Etymologically, the word is derived from Old English hel, helle.  Old English is derived from Anglo-Saxon among other languages, all of which are part of the Germanic branch of the language family.  This branch covers most of the northern European languages, whilst the Romance branch covers the more southern European languages, such as Spanish, Italian, Greek, etc.

As such, it would be correct to say that 'hell' is a Germanic word, but not a German one.  If the site can't get this kind of thing correct, what value is it?

[Jan]

I would disagree with this, Jan, simply because there is no suggestion in the Bible that bits of a soul can be divided/pruned from the rest.  I understand the soul to be a discrete, indivisible entity that is the very essence of a person, and that the soul is specific to each individual

So then you don't believe that a person/soul who has done bad stuff can ever change? Because that is what the pruning metaphor means to me (Its not a suggestion Andy its in Matthew 25:46 - which is the mistranslation thing which should have been recorded as "These shall go away into age-long pruning" or "These shall go away into age-lasting chastisement" )

Basically when we leave this life, we go to a realm/conditions where we learn further (that which is actually 'us' leaves the physical body behind and continues to live in another realm, where our experiences 'refine' us (if that makes sense)

]Sorry, my inability to get my words straight!!  I didn't recognise the specific pages referred to - I have heard plenty about the Tentmaker group, and - yes - we have referenced it in debate before.

yes we have haven't we 

[AndyHB]

So then you don't believe that a person/soul who has done bad stuff can ever change? Because that is what the pruning metaphor means to me. Basically when we leave this life, we go to a realm/conditions where we learn further (that which is actually 'us' leaves the physical body behind and continues to live in another realm, where our experiences 'refine' us (if that makes sense)

No, I don't.  What makes this any different to 'reincarnation'?  How could they 'refine' themselves without coming back as someone else - something that my 'one soul, one individual' understanding rules out?

[Jan]

Ah see - you do it again, amend/add to a previous post, so there is a chance it isn't seen.

By the way, I might have a bit more confidence in the 'what the hell is hell' site if they could spell properly!!  The spelling and punctuation in the first two homepage 'boxes' is well-shot.

What? You are criticising someones spelling - when sometimes your spelling isn't up to scratch and you teach English????    Perhaps the info you add here should be disregarded then if you have spelled a word wrongly or get your letters transposed!

As for the claim that the word is a German one, that is stretching the truth.  Etymologically, the word is derived from Old English hel, helle.

I found another reference stating that 'hel' is a location in Norse mythology (as well as a Swedish Viking Rock band ....) The word Helheim, the location, means "house of Hel." It was the abode of Hel, a female figure who ruled the Underworld in Norse Mythology.

 

Old English is derived from Anglo-Saxon among other languages, all of which are part of the Germanic branch of the language family.  This branch covers most of the northern European languages, whilst the Romance branch covers the more southern European languages, such as Spanish, Italian, Greek, etc.

As such, it would be correct to say that 'hell' is a Germanic word, but not a German one.  If the site can't get this kind of thing correct, what value is it?

Oh for being pedantic eh.... German is classified as a West Germanic Language Andy (under the same umbrella). 

Point being - the person who put the info on the site you are dissing, will have researched the info from somewhere else no doubt. Spelling mistakes and punctuation errors can and do happen - that does not mean that the info is incorrect, but granted  it should have been checked first, if only to keep the spelling police (and those who might not believe it has any truth in it, because it has spelling mistakes present) happy.

[Jan]

No, I don't.  What makes this any different to 'reincarnation'?  How could they 'refine' themselves without coming back as someone else - something that my 'one soul, one individual' understanding rules out?

You say you don't believe a person who does bad stuff can ever change, that they should be punished endlessly and they can't learn to do otherwise?

That is strange given that each of us has done bad stuff and can often feel guilty about causing hurt to others, so much so that we mend our ways and try to be better people. The refinement can start right here on Earth. You hear of criminals who have turned their lives around completely.  Eternal Progression is open to every human soul.  Some might come back here (reincarnation) or might continue to progress in the spirit realms, depending on what lessons need to be learnt. Again we have done reincarnation as a topic and there are different understandings to what this means, plus lots of accounts on the web.

reincarnation info

And now I am probably going to confuse you more by adding this ...

The larger soul never incarnates in its entirety in matter. That portion of which you are aware in an earthly body is only a splinter and not the whole.

If you want to know a bit more then do a search on Silver Birch.

[AndyHB]