Author Topic: Can you appreciate good withou experiencing bad?  (Read 172 times)

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Offline AndyHB

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Can you appreciate good withou experiencing bad?
« on: April 10, 2011, 09:05:16 »
I did think of putting this in the 'Inner Space' area, but thought I'd put it here as it isn't necessarily a 'religious' issue.

On a different forum, a friend of mine posed the following question:

"Do you think its possible to appreciate the best things in life fully without experiencing the opposite or lack of something? For example, can you totally appreciate love without experiencing hate or complete loneliness?"

What do folk here think?
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tranchiebabe

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I don't know Andy.

Offline EliB

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Going on the love without experiencing hate example, then yes, I think you can! You can love and know you're loved without having had someone provoke hatred within you.

Generally, I think bad times help us to appreciate the good times MORE, but I don't think they're an essential requirement to appreciating them.

Offline ecuworrier

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i know some folks seems to go out of their way to make that case..

but like the other two i don't think that's remotely necessary...

the phrase: there but for the grace of god go i.... is a demo that to some folks they only need to look around at the folks round them to know how to appreciate that things ain't that bad and in fact they is pretty gorgeous in places ... in comparison!

or the count your blessings is rolled out for those who can't seem to appreciate or recognise what they got going for them  not sure giving them an even worse dose of whatever is biting them is gonna help somehow!  it's just about opening those eyes... or having them opened for them

i think even in a really sumptuous circumstances or even really awful ones folks is folks they will either loojk with gratitude to the bright side of life or see nothing good can come out of Galilee!... and all that

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,


Offline JJ

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I'm wondering if the question isn't rather loaded really. Forcing what may be a false comparison.

My view is that we are born with empathy and a need for relationship with others - witness the bond between families - and if we think about it we can imagine what it would be like to be without them - which is why we make such effort to keep them safe.

Offline AndyHB

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My view is that we are born with empathy and a need for relationship with others - witness the bond between families - and if we think about it we can imagine what it would be like to be without them - which is why we make such effort to keep them safe.
It could equally be argued that we see what can happen to families that are riven by abuse, debt, lovelessness, etc., so make an effort to keep our own safe.
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Offline JJ

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That's too considered a response and secondary.  The basic instinct is to love your closest because that's what our hormones tell us to do.  Often even if they're abusive relatives.

tranchiebabe

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The basic instinct is to love your closest because that's what our hormones tell us to do.  Often even if they're abusive relatives.

I certainly couldn't love a relative if they were abusive towards me, that is a fact.

Offline AndyHB

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I certainly couldn't love a relative if they were abusive towards me, that is a fact.
But you only have to listen to the hundreds, nay thousands, of partners who, despite being abused regularly, still claim to love their abusive partner.  It is why so many of them feel unable to leave them.
Growing old is compulsory. Growing up is optional.

Have you visited the Garw Valley Railway yet?

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tranchiebabe

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I certainly couldn't love a relative if they were abusive towards me, that is a fact.
But you only have to listen to the hundreds, nay thousands, of partners who, despite being abused regularly, still claim to love their abusive partner.  It is why so many of them feel unable to leave them.

How very sad! My husband would have only had to raise his hand to me once to be shown the door.

Offline Martin

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It's extremely difficult, if not impossible to imagine a world where nothing ever goes wrong. So it's very difficult to answer the question of whether Love, say between a mother and her daughter, would develop if she were to experience a childhood where there were no grazed knees, where towers of bricks couldn't be knocked over (unless she wanted them to be), where ice creams didn't melt and plop onto the car park and where other children never bullied or were never nasty to her.

We don't live in that sort of a world, but my guess is that all Love needs to develop is relationship.

Perhaps it would help if instead of trying to consider a childhood in a world of which we have no experience, we compared two childhoods that we really can imagine. 

The first is the sort of childhood where all the usual mundane things that go wrong in every child's childhood, do happen. It's a childhood of grazed knees, stubbed toes, bashed funny bones, popping baloons, frustrations, disappointments and the occasional cold thrown in.  It's also a childhood of hapinesses, of sunny days spent buiding sand castles, of the fascination of lego, of playful loving parents and a warm snuggly bed at night.

The second is the sort of childhood with all the same bad things. Ony in this childhood experience we'll throw in brittle bones, chemotherapy for childhood leukaemia, a father dying prematurely and a house and possessions, with all its familliarity and security, swept away by a tsunami. - I've deliberately not included suffering inflicted by other humans here, because it can cloud the issue.

The mothers in both our scenarios show tender Love to their children throughout.  Does the child in the second scenario learn to Love her mother proportionally more because of proportianally more suffering?  I don't think anyone would agree that more suffering brings greater Love.

So while there may be something to the idea that, for the normal interplay between mother and child to take place - an interplay in which Love grows, there must be upsets, failures and disappointments as well as happiness, successes, and satisfactions, I don't think that such a notion gets us around the problem of evil.  The sorts of massive tragedy that we've just witnessed with the Japanese tsunami, the horrendous suffering caused by disease and genetic disorders, all outside of human control, can't be said to be necessary for the ability to learn to Love.  Oh yes we need Love to help in such situations, such as we can - comforting the victims, offering practical help and assistance,  giving of our time and energy to research treatments and cures etc. but these events and circumstances that cause us to suffer to the point of breaking, are not explained away by the notion that, for God to place humankind in a world where humans could develop the ability to Love, God had to allow these dreadful things to happen.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 11:45:27 by Martin »
It's not just what you're given, it's what you do with what you've got.

Offline JJ

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The basic instinct is to love your closest because that's what our hormones tell us to do.  Often even if they're abusive relatives.

I certainly couldn't love a relative if they were abusive towards me, that is a fact.

Well, many, many young children do in their innocence.  And as Andy says, many, many partners put up with a lot too.

Offline ecuworrier

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I certainly couldn't love a relative if they were abusive towards me, that is a fact.
But you only have to listen to the hundreds, nay thousands, of partners who, despite being abused regularly, still claim to love their abusive partner.  It is why so many of them feel unable to leave them.

hmmm speaks the expert from the other planet ,,, i'm afraid...

it was not until i was beaten up myself by a lover that i had some eyeopening and shocking insight into the mystical question of why abused partners do not leave.... i am pretty sure every instance has their own nuance of story but it sure is not straightforward ... it's a bit like why doesn't a bird with a broken wing fly away

healed bruises are poor indicaters of what's going on inside

and as for your comments on a line entitled 'Re: Can you appreciate good withou experiencing bad?' .... the mind boggles!

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 14:12:53 by ecuworrier »

Offline Jan

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"Do you think its possible to appreciate the best things in life fully without experiencing the opposite or lack of something? For example, can you totally appreciate love without experiencing hate or complete loneliness?"

What do folk here think?

I believe that we need to know both - yes.

"Life is a myriad of joys and woes
With all we need to grow
Both the sunshine and the rains of life
To make our own rainbow."
'Amor Vincit Omnia' ?

Offline EliB

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The basic instinct is to love your closest because that's what our hormones tell us to do.  Often even if they're abusive relatives.

I certainly couldn't love a relative if they were abusive towards me, that is a fact.

I've met many who do - yes, it causes some of them confusion, but they do still love the person who has abused them (talking of csa more than DV!)