Rethinking the Afterlife ..

[Jan]

..Idea of going to hell has taken on too much importance ? it already exists on earth, says evangelical pastor

Rev. Chad Holtz was fired from his position as pastor from a church in Henderson, N.C. after posting on his Facebook page a defence of a forthcoming book by megachurch pastor Rob Bell, in which Bell challenges millions of Christians? understanding of the afterlife.

Article here

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Religion/1236340.html   

You tube clip here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODUvw2McL8g&feature=player_embedded

(interesting article    )

   

[AndyHB]

Jan, it should be remembered that a whole host of internet debate took place several weeks BEFORE the book by Rob Bell was actually published - and was based on the editor's comments on the back of the cover, which Collins released to Amazon because of the high level of pre-orders they were receiving. Don't know of anyone who has read the book in its entirety, nor do I know when Pastor Holtz made his Facebook post, but it does seem to have been "in defence of a forthcoming book", so it seems unlikely that he had read the book either.  The only person I know to have read any of it says that the first 3 1/2 chapters (ie as far as he had read at that point) have absolutely nothing controversial or unorthodox in them.

[Martin]

Looks like Rob Bell has correctly identified the contradiction in terms of the idea of a God who is Love who sustains the existence of a place of eternal torment. That's a big step for an Evangelical, and a huge step for someone who is the pastor of a mega church.  I guess it shows that honesty can break out even among  the most dishonest people, when it is encouraged to do so by Love.

[Jan]

I haven't read the book either Andy. I received the link to the info in a weekly newsletter. Just thought it was interesting and rather refreshing - especially this part.

In the book, Bell criticizes the belief that a select number of Christians will spend eternity in the bliss of heaven while everyone else is tormented forever in hell.

"This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus?s message of love, peace, forgiveness and joy that our world desperately needs to hear," he writes in the book.

[AndyHB]

Looks like Rob Bell has correctly identified the contradiction in terms of the idea of a God who is Love who sustains the existence of a place of eternal torment.

Have you read the book yet, Martin?

I haven't read the book either Andy. I received the link to the info in a weekly newsletter. Just thought it was interesting and rather refreshing - especially this part.

In the book, Bell criticizes the belief that a select number of Christians will spend eternity in the bliss of heaven while everyone else is tormented forever in hell.

This seems to be a reworking of the 'product description' and some of the reviews on the Amazon site, Jan.  I'd be interested to see what he actually says - perhaps I'll order a copy today.

[Martin]

I haven't read the book yet Andy.  That's why I used the words 'Looks like'.

[Jan]

Well the 'Love Wins' book by Bell and the true feelings on 'hell' by the Rev Chad Holtz have certainly got a reaction already.

"I think justice comes and judgment will happen, but I don?t think that means an eternity of torment," Holtz said. "But I can understand why people in my church aren?t ready to leave that behind. It?s something I?m still grappling with myself."

I think this could be a positive sign of a change in reasoning and understanding here on the Earth plane

[AndyHB]

I haven't read the book yet Andy.  That's why I used the words 'Looks like'.

that smacks of the attitude that Pastor Holtz's congregation took in deciding to oust him, Martin.  So judgemental!

Brings the comment 'Don't judge a book by its cover' to mind.

[AndyHB]

Well the 'Love Wins' book by Bell and the true feelings on 'hell' by the Rev Chad Holtz have certainly got a reaction already.

Oh, you don't know just how much reaction, Jan.  Apparently, blog after blog was full of it long before the book was published.  We even had a debate on it on the Greenbelt forum!!

Just not sure, yet, that Pastor Holtz's comments are representative of Rob Bell's views.

By the way, have ordered the book - arrives tomorrow.

[AndyHB]

Thought folk might enjoy reading one of the blog threads that have grown up around 'Love Wins'.

[saundthorp]

Looks like Rob Bell has correctly identified the contradiction in terms of the idea of a God who is Love who sustains the existence of a place of eternal torment. That's a big step for an Evangelical, and a huge step for someone who is the pastor of a mega church.  I guess it shows that honesty can break out even among  the most dishonest people, when it is encouraged to do so by Love.

Ok Martin, please tell me what you think happens to someone who dies in total enmity with God

[AndyHB]

Here's Rob Bell's own take on the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfboAzw-XGU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[AndyHB]

Have read the first couple of chapters, and found a couple of nuggets.

Bell starts by asking a whole series of questions, and then answers them by posing another in response

One way to respond to these questions is with the clear, helpful answer: all that matters is how you respond to Jesus. And that answer totally resonates with me; it is about how you respond to Jesus. But it raises another important question: Which Jesus?

He then poses a page or two's-worth of examples of such Jesus's, including: 

Often times when I meet atheists and we talk about the god they don't believe in, we quickly discover that I don't believe in that god either.

So when we hear that a certain person has "rejected Christ", we should first ask, "Which Christ?"

I'll keep you posted!!

[Martin]

Ok Martin, please tell me what you think happens to someone who dies in total enmity with God

Well ISTM that the 'in total enmity with God' bit is superfluous. When you die your brain, that thing which make you what you are, goes out.  I suggest that it will be like it was before you were born. For me, heaven and hell are states, they are metaphors for the way the world could be, for the ideals that we strive for.  Hell, ISTM, is the shallowness of selfishness, greed, thinking that the whole world should revolve around oneself.  That isn't real living, it's hollow, unsatisfying existence.  Heaven is a life lived striving for good and right, a life of finding joy in other's pleasure, of wanting and enabling people to be all they night be, of  knowing the beauty of happiness brought to others, and sharing the joy and the pain with others in community.

So, for me, it isn't about what happevs when you die, but what happens while you are alive.

[AndyHB]

Another YouTube[/quote] piece.

In a way, this piece highlights the difference between American and British evangelicalism - perhaps even between American and non-American evangelicalism.  In it, Rob Bell states that

"...the real question is 'What is God like' because millions and millions of people were taught that the primary message, the centre of the Gospel of Jesus, is that God is going to send you to hell unless you believe in Jesus ..."

I have heard some preachers say this, either directly or indirectly, but all have either been Americans or people who have been influenced by American-style doctrine such as the Prosperity Gospel, or Southern Baptist thinking.

I, for one, have never heard a 'traditional' British evangelical, be they Baptist, Methodist, Anglican or even RC (and, yes there are many 'evangelicals' within the RC Church) say such a think, let alone teach it from their pulpit/lectern.  Perhaps, I've just been at the wrong place all the time  .