Author Topic: Strike  (Read 922 times)

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Offline Martin

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Re: Strike
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2011, 16:15:05 »
A moment ago, Andy, you were arguing that private sector education didn't confer advantage; that people simply sent their children to private schools because they were out of the country or suchlike.  Now you seem to be arguing that abolishing private education will 'bring people down to a lower level'. I fear you are making it abundantly apparent that your private education did nothing for your logic!



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Offline AndrewF

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Re: Strike
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2011, 18:25:28 »
I wrote a long answer Martin and the internet failed me!
Even now, within the state system, schools run by local authorities have to declare their income, even the income generated by Parent/Teacher Associations.  There are things that such money can't be spent on - suppose the PTA of a LA run primary school wanted to fund extra teachers for instance. What could happen is that funding would be reduced by the LA because the budget was no longer needed. 
They can reduce it as much as they like - the parents of rich kids can more than compensate for that. Even if the funding was reduced to zero they would be able to fully fund the school - after all that is exactly what is happening now!
In the political debates, fairness can win, it just needs people to keep on saying it.
Not if the majority of politicians have a vested interest in it not winning - regardless of the will of the masses! (and I afraid I do not trust the politicians of any hue...)
If we take your attitude and just give up, saying that there is no stopping these people, that all outcomes where the poor get poorer and the rich get richer are inevitable, then that is what will happen./i]
Except that this is NOT my attitude... I entirely agree that we should work for greater equality - especially in the distribution of wealth. There is a book - The Spirit Level - which explains that, once the average income is above a certain point, the critical factor in all sorts of beneficial criteria is the ratio of the high(est) earners income to that of the median earners. Everything from health, happiness, crime, educational achievement and I forget how many other things they checked on all have the same shape of graph, with countries that have a large ratio having bad outcomes in all the criteria when compared to countries with a smaller ratio - whether that is caused by a smaller difference in the wage packets or by a large difference in wage packets coupled with an effective re-distributive taxation system. I just don't think trying to abolish the private schooling sector will achieve this...- and certainly not before persuading the majority of people who currently use the private schools that doing so is not the way forward.
If you want to get poor kids into the 'elite' schools the only way is for the govt to pay the full price for those places, but there are two problems in this.
The first is that there would have to be a LONG term commitment - at least 20+ years - and with increasing numbers of places funded.
The second is that, as I said earlier, poor kids would not want to be there as they would not be able to hold their own among their peers. Parents choose the schools they send their kids to quite carefully (at least, the majority do!); and there are a lot of things they look at - as you will know if you have kids. It is not only the academic standard of the school that is important. For a kid to thrive s/he need to be happy - and if s/he can not do the things his/her contemporaries are doing or s/he is 'the odd one out' for some other reason, then s/he will not thrive, no matter how good the staff are. Extracurricular activities (and the cost thereof - and even if there is a school savings system for these activities), any other costs the parents are expected to contribute towards, the ethos, how 'hard' the kids are (and whether they can get away with demonstrating this), the expectations of the teachers, the degree of parental involvement, are just a few of the many things we took into account when we chose the schools our three went to - and the net result is that they went through the state system, and all three are doing (or have completed) university courses - one with an MA under her belt, one currently on an M Phil and expecting to go on to Law School and then the Bar - whereas I went through the private sector (largely possible because Her Majesty paid for 2/3 of the cost since my father was an army officer!). On the other hand my sister's 2 boys went to the local private school, and did not do nearly as well academically - but I suspect that might have been the case whatever school they went to. I have nothing against the state sector, and I think there is a role for the private sector as well along-side it - but I do agree that it does need to have the pedestal it is on broken down!
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Offline Martin

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Re: Strike
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2011, 12:43:36 »
They can reduce it as much as they like - the parents of rich kids can more than compensate for that. Even if the funding was reduced to zero they would be able to fully fund the school - after all that is exactly what is happening now!

But all that needs to happen is that all funding must be declared (as it is now) and funding above a certain level is simply filtered off and given to other schools on the basis of fair distribution.  Also, if a quarter of the students at the school came from the local council estate, they would be receiving the benefit of any extra funding provided by the rich quarter.

So yes there are things that the government would need to keep an eye on, but no they are not insurmountable.

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Not if the majority of politicians have a vested interest in it not winning - regardless of the will of the masses! (and I afraid I do not trust the politicians of any hue...)

You're right, of course, we need to rid ourselves of corruption and self-service within the political system.  We need to make it easier, by having a proportional voting system, for new movements with fresh idealism, to get into the political arena, so that new parties can get a few MPs this year, a few more MPs next year.  We need to stop the strangle-hold that the three major parties have on the political system.  Not easy, I grant you, but if the will is there it can be done.
 
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[Except that this is NOT my attitude... I entirely agree that we should work for greater equality - especially in the distribution of wealth. There is a book - The Spirit Level - which explains that, once the average income is above a certain point, the critical factor in all sorts of beneficial criteria is the ratio of the high(est) earners income to that of the median earners. Everything from health, happiness, crime, educational achievement and I forget how many other things they checked on all have the same shape of graph, with countries that have a large ratio having bad outcomes in all the criteria when compared to countries with a smaller ratio - whether that is caused by a smaller difference in the wage packets or by a large difference in wage packets coupled with an effective re-distributive taxation system. I just don't think trying to abolish the private schooling sector will achieve this...- and certainly not before persuading the majority of people who currently use the private schools that doing so is not the way forward.

Abolishing private education won't in itself achieve it. But as I said before, we are not in an either/or situation.  Your attitude seems to be that we should leave private education alone because it is too difficult to stamp out privilege in education.  But who are those politicians you were talking about, who have a vested interest in keeping the system as it is?  Who are those people in charge who won't change things?  Well the Prime minister is an Eaton boy and so is the chancellor, while the deputy PM is a Westminster boy!  We need to fight private education because it is part of the self perpetuating problem and we need to fight that self perpetuating problem at all levels, not just some.  Don't believe the hype that private education doesn't harm society.  It does. Massively.

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If you want to get poor kids into the 'elite' schools the only way is for the govt to pay the full price for those place.

The 'only way'?  Who says? As I say, if you accept the hype then it becomes true.  If you challenge it at every level then it evaporates.

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The first is that there would have to be a LONG term commitment - at least 20+ years - and with increasing numbers of places funded.

The struggle is a long one.  Possibly it is never completed. But there should be no compromise, no acceptance that things are good enough. We should be battling at all levels for a fairer world.  We should never say that it is right or OK for rich people to buy the most well paid and most powerful positions in society for their children. We should always challenge it.

In your final paragraph you seem to be arguing that poor children entering a school in a rich area wouldn't thrive because they wouldn't want to be there. This, I think, is not likely to be as much of a problem as you might think.   Yes there would be children with super-rich parents in the class, but there would be children with middle class parents in the class too, and then there would be the council estate children.  We are talking about a gradation of wealth backgrounds in most schools, and we would need school policies that did their best to promote an equality amongst pupils.

There is pretty much the same sort of gradation (though with the very highest end absent) within comprehensives in the leafy suburbs and although the affluence of some is very apparent and there are problems which stem from that, it is far better that these children go to the same school than that they should go to different schools based on the affluence of their parents!   Within such comprehensive schools you get bright children from poorer backgrounds and not so bright children from affluent backgrounds, classes are often streamed and therefore it's not too unusual for friendship groups to develop within those levels.   I agree that affluence plays a part in defining the groups which can arise, but there a reasonable amount of crosstalk.  If all that were to come of the kids being taught in the same classes, was a recognition, by everyone, that achievement and ability were not defined by one's class (poor kids realise that they are just as good, sometimes better than their richer peers and rich kids realise that there is talent outside their class) then that would be a massive bonus.  But there is more to it than that, real friendships develop across class boundaries and serve to break down the class system. 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 12:48:04 by Martin »
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Offline AndrewF

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Re: Strike
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2011, 11:33:02 »
I am not suggesting that we should leave the private sector alone, just that it is no use trying to abolish it outright without first having persuaded the majority of those who currently use that sector that it is not the right way forward. In fact I am not persuaded that total abolition is the way forward, if there is sufficient reformation.
As for my argument about kids flourishing in schools, what I was saying is that if they are not happy they will not do as well as they could, and that one reason for them not being happy can be that they are on a totally different level socially to the majority of their peers. I do not see how you can argue against this proposition! Whether they would be willing to go to the school or would prefer a different one where they fit in better depends in the amount of independent spirit the particular child has, but I would suggest that the majority would prefer to be on a more equal footing if given the choice, and that parents will take this into account (along with a whole bunch of other criteria) when choosing the school they send the kid to.
You are trying to counter my position by arguing about a different situation. I was not talking about the 'run-of-the-mill' private school, where I agree there is a gradation from the middle to the upper ranges of wealth, but of the 'elite' schools like Eaton, which only those in the upper bands of wealth can afford. In one of these schools someone from a council estate with parents on 'manual workers' level of salary would not have a snow-ball's chance in hell of fitting in.
You also contested my point that to get a poor kid into one of these schools would need the govt to pay the fees, but if the govt doesn't then who will? - O K There may be a few philanthropists who set up bursaries for such kids, but there would not be enough of these places for there to be a substantial number of such kids in an elite school, and without a 'critical mass', those who do get in will have a pretty hard time of it....
I am not saying that we should ignore the situation and hope it goes away. I do agree that the private sector needs shaking up and (especially) the elite schools knocking off their pedestal, but I do not think that abolishing them outright now is the answer!











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Offline Martin

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Re: Strike
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2011, 13:07:45 »
Eaton would not exist in its current form if private education was abolished. You could have streaming or even special state schools in which the especially gifted received a faster moving, more advanced education, but, if you do that, then social background should be taken into account when assessing who the especially gifted are.
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Offline AndyHB

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Re: Strike
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2011, 17:42:33 »
A moment ago, Andy, you were arguing that private sector education didn't confer advantage; that people simply sent their children to private schools because they were out of the country or suchlike.  Now you seem to be arguing that abolishing private education will 'bring people down to a lower level'. I fear you are making it abundantly apparent that your private education did nothing for your logic!
Or yours, Martin!!  I simply said that while you espouse a system that claims to drag the educationally weaker up by association with the stronger, it doesn't actually work out that way in reality; if anything it drags the stronger down to the average and the weaker are largely untouched, except to see what they are falling short of.
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Offline AndyHB

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Re: Strike
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2011, 17:53:49 »
... but I do agree that it does need to have the pedestal it is on broken down!
I sometimes wonder exactly who builds the pedestal?  It's rather like the pedestal that people in the pew build for those who do mission work; they must be super-spiritual and 'special' to be able to do that kind of work (which, of course, is totally untrue).
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Offline AndyHB

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Re: Strike
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2011, 18:01:08 »
Eaton would not exist in its current form if private education was abolished. You could have streaming or even special state schools in which the especially gifted received a faster moving, more advanced education, but, if you do that, then social background should be taken into account when assessing who the especially gifted are.
So you think we ought to have state-sponsored 'exclusive' schools?  How would you decide which child was most suited to such a school, by the way?

By the way, the 'best' schools aren't those that necessarily achieve the most GCSEs or A-levels.  Rather, they are those schools that raise the educational achievement of the children they have most.  As a result, most of the truly 'best' schools are in some of the most run-down and deprived areas of the country.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 18:03:28 by AndyHB »
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Offline Martin

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Re: Strike
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2011, 19:39:42 »
]So you think we ought to have state-sponsored 'exclusive' schools?  How would you decide which child was most suited to such a school, by the way?
Actually I think the argument for state sponsored schools for the exceptionally gifted has its pros and cons, but essentially, if it is to work,  then children should be selected on the basis of their natural ability rather than their ability to pay.  It's possible to see something similar working in, say, Chethams School.  In that case it's not entirely free but fees are based on the ability to pay.

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By the way, the 'best' schools aren't those that necessarily achieve the most GCSEs or A-levels.  Rather, they are those schools that raise the educational achievement of the children they have most.  As a result, most of the truly 'best' schools are in some of the most run-down and deprived areas of the country.
I agree that there are some exceptional schools which operate in deprived areas.  That doesn't alter the fact that, currently the rich can buy a far greater chance of success in education for their children than can the poor.
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Offline AndrewF

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Re: Strike
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2011, 12:25:43 »
Actually I think the argument for state sponsored schools for the exceptionally gifted has its pros and cons, but essentially, if it is to work,  then children should be selected on the basis of their natural ability rather than their ability to pay.
Or in the remaining Grammar schools... - I wonder why they were abolished in most LEA's???
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Offline Martin

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Re: Strike
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2011, 16:46:35 »
Or in the remaining Grammar schools... - I wonder why they were abolished in most LEA's???

The idea of selecting children on the basis of an examination at the age of 11 and then segregating the 'intelligent' from the 'less intelligent' is a very poor one.  Children develop at various stages. Far better to have streaming within the same school where children can move between streams at the end of each year.
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Offline AndyHB

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Re: Strike
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2011, 19:57:48 »
]So you think we ought to have state-sponsored 'exclusive' schools?  How would you decide which child was most suited to such a school, by the way?
Actually I think the argument for state sponsored schools for the exceptionally gifted has its pros and cons, but essentially, if it is to work,  then children should be selected on the basis of their natural ability rather than their ability to pay. 
It's a pity then that the very schools that most regularly provided such a service, grammar schools, have been abolished by most Local Authorities!!

The idea of selecting children on the basis of an examination at the age of 11 and then segregating the 'intelligent' from the 'less intelligent' is a very poor one.  Children develop at various stages. Far better to have streaming within the same school where children can move between streams at the end of each year.
So, which is it to be, Martin?  State-sponsored schools of excellence, which will necessitate a form of selection and an age for that selection, or comprehensive schools that have streaming (selection with a different name) and which have been shown to be largely ineffective at pulling the 'least gifted' up to anywhere near the level of the average, let alone the most gifted (most of whom are actually pulled down to the average).
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 20:03:10 by AndyHB »
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Offline Martin

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Re: Strike
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2011, 21:30:21 »
and which have been shown to be largely ineffective at pulling the 'least gifted' up to anywhere near the level of the average, let alone the most gifted (most of whom are actually pulled down to the average).
In your opinion.
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Offline AndyHB

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Re: Strike
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2011, 12:53:49 »
In your opinion.
Well, of course - so long as you want to treat official reports over the past 40-odd years as 'my opinion', Martin!  "A"
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Offline AndrewF

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Re: Strike
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2011, 12:55:07 »
Actually I think the argument for state sponsored schools for the exceptionally gifted has its pros and cons, but essentially, if it is to work,  then children should be selected on the basis of their natural ability rather than their ability to pay.

The idea of selecting children on the basis of an examination at the age of 11 and then segregating the 'intelligent' from the 'less intelligent' is a very poor one.  Children develop at various stages. Far better to have streaming within the same school where children can move between streams at the end of each year.

There seems to be a slight contradiction between these two statements of yours Martin...
And no, it is not just Andy's opinion that most comps tend not to encourage the gifted to rise to the best o their potential, but to sink to the median. I will happily grant you that this is not universal, but it is all too common - and there is plenty of documentary evidence to demonstrate this. I think it is improving now that the majority of comps DO stream the kids, rather than insisting on teaching mixed ability classes with the total thicko's in with the brainboxes (to be truly un-PC!), but it is still the case in far too many schools.
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