St Paul's Closes

[Boudi]

Not sure that it's just the C of E can can get the flack.  I bet most people have churches that are fundraising for a new roof, new kitchen, new sound system, rather than housing the homeless, and feeding the hungry in a real way

[Martin]

I agree with much of the sentiment in that too. Though I think he slightly misses the point in that we need to do more than just be welcoming and hospitable to protesters.  I think we need to declare our solidarity with their aims.

This simply said that we need to be welcoming and hospitable tom protesters and to declare solidarity with their aims.

Ah.  I see how the misunderstanding arose -  and it's my mistake, sorry.  I should have written 'the protestors' not simply 'protestors'.

Yes of course I'm not saying that any protest, no matter what its aims, should be met with solidarity from the church.

Not sure that it's just the C of E can can get the flack.  I bet most people have churches that are fundraising for a new roof, new kitchen, new sound system, rather than housing the homeless, and feeding the hungry in a real way

I agree up to a point.
When a church spends money on a new roof, new kitchen or new sound system it can be spending money in a way that is self-indulgent, when there are more desrving causes.  However there are usually reasons why a church might do this.  If the roof is leaking, the options are usually to fix it or to allow the building to suffer more damage because of it.  If the building is used for nothing more than housing a group of people in a sort of holy huddle club, who care little for the community they are in, or for the wider world, then I think you have a point.  If the building is used as a comunity centre, somewhere that Alcoholics Anonymous meets, a place where people come for marriage guidance, a day care centre for the elderly, a place where parents and toddlers have a chance to get together without having to shell out a fortune, etc, then I think money spent on the fabric of the building is not spent self-indulgently.  Similarly, a kitchen refit may be to bring a kitchen up to the standard it needs to be, to run a drop-in centre for homeless people. A new sound system may be needed because a church involved in these sorts of activities, derives its drive and passion from church services where the sound system is important for people to hear and respond in solidarity with one another.

So spending money is not so much the issue, it's the good that is the result that's important.

In the case we're talking about,  the church found itself in a position where protests had arrived at its door, literally.  It found itself, because of its location next to the LSE, having to make a decision whether to welcome and support or to turn away those fighting a cause on behalf of the poor.  More importantly, whatever decisions it made were going to be very visible.  Here was an opportunity for really stating Christ's solidarity with the poor, unambiguously.  And it blew it.  It acheived the opposite, aligning its image with the power structure that keeps the poor oppressed.  Oh yes they produce a paper or two that's critical of the system, but when real action arrives on their doorstep, they side with those who want to supress it.
 

[Boudi]

I agree that they blew it, and I think they wouldn agree with that too, but by turning such a focus on the church and its behaviour the protesters and their supporters blew it too, because the issue has become the poor tent people and how the church doesn't love them, rather than....er...what did I come in here for?

[Martin]

Far too early to say whether the protestors will achieve any of their desired objectives.  At the moment the camp is seen as a protest against unbridled capitalism.  I don't think that the protesters have detracted from this by occupying land next to St Pauls.  In a  way, such protests are simply a symptom of a problem, a bit like, say, civil rights protests in the US in the middle of the last century.  Each individial protest doesn't change the world, but as the movement gathers momentum and organisation, it becomes less and less easy to ignore it. 

So I woudn't say that the protesters have blown anything. If anything, the C of E's failure to support them, has given them much greater publicity than they would otherwise have had.  When the City of London   make their move to remove them, then that will generate more publicity.  By that time there will be more people disaffected with the system that keeps them poor while lining the pockets of the super rich - and the movement should grow as a result. 

[AndyHB]

Far too early to say whether the protestors will achieve any of their desired objectives.  At the moment the camp is seen as a protest against unbridled capitalism.  I don't think that the protesters have detracted from this by occupying land next to St Pauls. 

Were the protesters not directed onto Paternoster Square by the police - at the invitation of the cathedral - when it became clear that they would not be allowed to set up camp in the City proper?  Still haven't really got my head around what the church was expecting to happen.