St Paul's Closes

[Martin]

Not heard anything about **** allegations. Might be true - but there are vested interests here, and **** allegations seem to work a treat for subduing those who threaten the system - think Wikileaks.

But I was told today that the police forcibly dispersed the demonstrators from the London Stock Exchange where they were originally demonstrating. St Paul's, it seems was the nearest they could demonstrate.

[AndrewF]

All very sad. Giles is a good man and will be a loss in that position.

[Martin]

Indeed Andrew,

I understand he has no plan B - that he has no other job to go to.  I think he has behaved like a true Christian hero.  Such a shame that his sort are the ones who the church loses, while the chauffeur driven bishops remain.

[Martin]

Another resignation, this time it's Fraser Dyer a Chaplian at  St Paul's.

Meanwhile the St Paul's broken PR machine suppresses a report on bankers greed to save embarrassment on the protesters issue.

Some Christians have promised a non-violent ring of prayer around the protesters, should the police try to evict them.

And some seek to avert an even bigger PR disaster.

[Boudi]

the biggest problem here of course is that the outcome now is that the staff of s .pauls are gits, and the original issue is sidelined and forgotten!

[Martin]

I don't know whether that's true.  Certainly the chauffeur-driven Bishop of London the Rt Rev Richard Chartres, is looking like a bit of a ****, and the dean of St Paul's likewise, especially after the New Statesman exposed the health and safety issues as bogus.  But there is a groundswell,  a movement within the church that sees how much the concerns of the protesters coincide with the 'mind of Christ'. Much good is coming out of this I think.

[Martin]

Dean of St Paul's resigns

[AndyHB]

[AndrewF]

Yes, as so often he is right on the button! - Shame the church in this country had not already got there...(and still seems not to have :-(((  )

[Martin]

I agree with much of the sentiment in that too. Though I think he slightly misses the point in that we need to do more than just be welcoming and hospitable to protesters.  I think we need to declare our solidarity with their aims.

[Boudi]

.....er....if we agree with them!  We had a protest in the town centre yesterday about our new hospital.  Open about 18 months.  PFI replacement of the shabby but OK hospital next to it. They have now closed the A&E from 10pm to 8am, and may close the whole thing.  Having had to use it recently, and then go to another 10 miles away because they don't have dressings there I can't see there being any point in having a hospital that's only use seems to be to have a lot of vending machines, a cafe and a WH Smith.
Web can acommodate protestors...possibly...but surely we don't have to think alike?

[Martin]

Not sure I understand you Boudi.  Are you saying that you don't agree with the protestors in your town protesting about your hospital?

The thing is that the gospel is anti-capitalism, or, to put it in another way, it's anti-exploitation, anti-selfishness, anti-greed, pro-sharing, pro-underdog, pro-poor.  Oh I know that there are plenty of people, especially in the US, who don't think that, but it doesn't alter that fact that it is. 

Yes we do have a section of the church that doesn't agree with that, but I believe that Jesus would stand in solidarity with those who fight, peacefully, to change things.

Had the cathedral done that in the first place.  Had they followed Giles' example and welcomed the protestors, and even gone further in working with them to put pressure on the powers that be, then perhaps they would retain some relevance, some credibility  as fighters for right, justice and good.  As it is the CofE establisment has missed its opportunity and can be seen for the irrelevant bunch of compromised hypocrites they are.

[Boudi]

I don't automatically agree with protestors, and I don't see that the default position should be to do so.  If this were the case then the people protesting agaisnt Salman Rushdie, abortion clinics and  gay marriage would automatically get your backing.

The people campaigning to keep the hospital are on a hiding to nowhere because the facility we have is useless.  A campaign to make it what it was and keepm it, yes, but the work it does now could be done from a S.John Ambulance!  (if they sold magazines too)

As to whether the bible is (only) what you say...this has been debated for centuries.  There were people who believed that the Bible said we should hold everything in common...I believe the 39 articles makes a point of saying that the bible doesn't say this at all....so it's up for debate.

Private eye sums it up pretty well when it dsays that the result was that some people who were concerned about the poor lost their jobs, and the bankers carried on regardless.

[Martin]

I don't automatically agree with protestors, and I don't see that the default position should be to do so.  If this were the case then the people protesting agaisnt Salman Rushdie, abortion clinics and  gay marriage would automatically get your backing.

What a ridiculous misrepresentation of my position.You haven't got this from anything I've posted.

As to whether the bible is (only) what you say...this has been debated for centuries.  There were people who believed that the Bible said we should hold everything in common...I believe the 39 articles makes a point of saying that the bible doesn't say this at all....so it's up for debate.

There are countless theologies. Some people hold to the idea of prosperity theology - that God rewards the righteous with prosperity.  They substantiate their beliefs from the Bible. 

However, just because there are people who believe such things, doesn't make it right for organisations to sit on the fence, pretending that some internal, plural, inclusive debate is going on from which they will, at some stage in the nebulous future, distil a collective opinion.  That simply turns the church into an impotent, do nothing, stand for nothing, irrelevance - which is my point.

Where people are protesting for a fairer deal for the poor.  Where they are challenging a power structure which clearly assists the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer, it is right for Christians to stand in solidarity with those people no matter what any other debating factions may say.  If the C of E can't do this, either because the factions which disagree with such solidarity are too numerous or too powerful, or because they hold a misplaced loyalty to interminable debate at the expense of righteous action, then the C of E has lost its use.

[Boudi]

I agree with much of the sentiment in that too. Though I think he slightly misses the point in that we need to do more than just be welcoming and hospitable to protesters.  I think we need to declare our solidarity with their aims.

This simply said that we need to be welcoming and hospitable tom protesters and to declare solidarity with their aims.