Excessive sentences?

[AndyHB]

Apparently, two men who tried to incite riots/looting in the north of England via Facebook have been sentenced to 4 years in prison.  Some groups, such as the Howard League for Prison Reform have suggested that these sentences are excessive.

What are your thoughts?  Would it be more sensible to have them serving society by day, even if they were to be held in prison each night?  In other words, a mix of incarceration and community service?

[JJ]

I certainly agree that community service would be a better option, as long as that service is followed through and not sitting behind a bike shed smoking until the supervisor comes round.  I always think that the punishment is for the benefit of the perpetrator as well as the IP (injured party - police speak ) - what's the point of imprisoning someone and making them a worse and more embittered person than they were to begin with.

[Jan]

I agree - and would hope that those who do the community service would come away with more a sense of community and consideration for other people

[tranchiebabe]

I knew it wouldn't be long before people started bellyaching about the sentences handed down to the scum involved with the riots. During the day they should be made to put right the damage, however long that takes, and spend each night in secure accommodation.

I have two of my grandsons (7&5) here for the next couple of days. I was discussing the riots with the older lad and was interested to hear his views, which weren't prompted by me. He said that there was no excuse for what happened and they were all stupid and bad as they weren't hungry, or had no clothes like the people in Africa. He added that they wouldn't be able to get good jobs when they had a criminal record. He also said that he was going to keep out of trouble when he was a teenager and had his football (he hopes to play for Liverpool and England) to keep him occupied when not busy with his schoolwork (he is quite bright).  I wish I had taken a recording of that to play it back when he is a teenager.   

We went on to discuss good parenting techniques, he reckoned that it was great to have fun with parents and grandparent as the children do, but agreed with me that it is good that we are quite strict too. Out of the mouths of babes! My grandchildren are very fortunate kids, they all have parents who love, nurture and spend time with them.

[EliB]

I'm have mixed views on this....

These youths TRIED to incite violence - and although that in itself is a criminal offence and SHOULD be dealt with severely (haha! think i'm forgetting what country I'm in - we haven't dealt with anything "severely" for decades!!!!!) I think 4 years imprisonment isn inappropriate! Rapists don't even get that for goodness sake and they didn't ACTUALLY perpetrate any violence! I wonder if any of those caught actually rioting will get anything approaching that kind of sentence.

The other problem is how the offending youth culture view Community Service. When I was at court when my dad got assaulted, waiting outside was a real eye-opener - youths coming out of court shouting "Community Service" and other assembled youths cheering like they'd got one over on the system...they don't see it as any kind of sentence, punishment, deterrant, ANYTHING! They see it as a RESULT!
Whilst I think prison should be for violent offenders ONLY (with appropriate sentences!!!) I also agree that the COmmunity Service theory needs over hauling...I think the US have the right idea - different coloured hi viz jackets with the crime labelled on the back. Humiliation? Yes - but that in itself might be a deterrent! Although the Human Rights wallas would have something to say.......although human rights of the "IP" are always conveniently forgotten!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jan]

not 'bellyaching' but just thinking it through

I believe in the principle/law of 'sowing and reaping'  (the sixth principle of Spiritualism which is also in Galatians 6:6-18). We have to face the consequences of our actions (all of us).

What does locking 'em up teach 'em - besides just taking away their freedom but still ensuring they have a bed to sleep in, a roof over their heads and food to eat - paid for by the taxpayer - in already crowded prisons with plenty of 'reoffenders' in there - who obviously haven't learnt their lesson?

I also agree that the COmmunity Service theory needs over hauling...

It does if criminals believe it to be an easy ride. I wonder about getting those convicted to doing some of the community work which councils don't have the money for anymore (properly supervised of course)

[Martin]

These youths TRIED to incite violence - and although that in itself is a criminal offence and SHOULD be dealt with severely (haha! think i'm forgetting what country I'm in - we haven't dealt with anything "severely" for decades!!!!!) I think 4 years imprisonment isn inappropriate! Rapists don't even get that for goodness sake and they didn't ACTUALLY perpetrate any violence! I wonder if any of those caught actually rioting will get anything approaching that kind of sentence.

Indeed, there is no evidence that they were in any way succesful in inciting violence or even in causing a crowd to gather.  The scene was Northwich, which has remained peaceful.  Four years is a ridiculousy high sentence for such a crime - though it should not go unpunished.  As you say, sometimes rapists don't get that length of sentence, and to give such a sentence to these people, while telling **** victims that such sentences are inappropriate is a huge injustice.

What we are seing in action is a government (and their non-independent judiciary) saying to people that if you make trouble for the government you will be dealt with harshly, but if you hurt, injure, steal from or terrorise the ordinary, powerless person in the street, you will get away with very little or no punishment.

[tranchiebabe]

I think those youths who tried to incite the riots got what they deserved, and so should all the other too. Sentences have been far too soft lately and need to be much tougher. Softness obviously hasn't worked. Prisons should be like boot camps, spit and polish, hard work and seminas where they have to confront their criminal behaviour. There should certainly be no luxuries, like TVs and computers!

[Martin]

[ecuworrier]

hmmm   the radio has kindov asked the same questions... the judiaciary has suggested the harshness of sentencing reflects the aggravated factor of the circumstances of the crimes committed...

seems to me an example is being made of a few folks which i guess is consistent with the deterrance objective of 'punishment'...

not sure though that while law and order is seen to be done whether justice is happening...

agree with the notion that 'punishment' should be life changing for the better for all and everyone including victims and the person wot done crime done the time ... but can we really expect that to happen and who is gonna have the moral authority to hand that one out?

can something that comes from notions of morality open to question take the moral highground? is this not running the risk of creating problems stored for the future ... like at the very least in relationships or personal health mental as well as physical?

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,

[ecuworrier]

[Jan]

[Martin]

I find the parable of the rich man and Lazarus interesting...  Not that I think it has much to say about what happens after death!  I think it's interesting because it shows how Jesus felt about justice.  Of course it's not exactly a parallel in these circumstances, I mean, lowly Lazarus wasn't committing any crime as the dogs licked his sores outside the rich man's gate. But I think there are some interesting tell-tale concepts in the story.

Interesting is the way, even after death, the rich man still wants Lazarus to do his bidding, to serve him up a drink.  Is the torment simply a suggestion of the fact that in some fictional but perfect world, where justice is finally done, even the rich will have to do their own chores?  Interesting too that in our imperfect world,  so often the rich and famous, the celebrities and lords are named in stories while a poor person is not considered worth naming.  Lazarus is named and thus made human, the rich man is not.

Jesus, ISTM, was about a world where the tables are turned. The Kindom, within us, here on earth, is, for Jesus, a doable possibility - oh yes he's a realist - the poor will always be with us, but for Jesus, bringing about the Kingdom, here and now, was the objective, and even if it can never be fully achieved we are to attempt it, to believe in it, and strive for it, even if we die trying.

Jesus was well aware of the world's structure.  He knew that the rich were more equal than others that the pious and the haughty saw themselves as 'the great and the good', and he railed against it in the stories he told, in the friends he kept and in the life he led.

[tranchiebabe]

I am of the opinion a bit of old fashioned discipline wouldn't go amiss. My two grandsons (7&5), who are staying with me for a couple of days experienced it this morning. I applied my hand to two backsides when several warnings went unheeded!

[JJ]

Crap.