Goodness atheists and religious people

[Martin]

I provided clarity that I was expressing my opinion as soon as you questioned it.  You clearly are not 'looking for clarity' all these posts later. 

There is no evidence that has satisfied proper experimental scrutiny, of the existence of such a thing as a soul.  Just as there is none for the existence of minotaurs or zombies.  And you've shown your willingness to believe in zombies, when it suited your argument to do so, based upon a web page that clearly questions the truth of their existence.

You may be interested to know that Dr Ian Stevenson, although he was repeatedly asked whether he believed in reincarnation, was circumspect about his answer - not the actions of one whose scientific research leaves one with no other possible alternate theory or belief.

Dr Ian Stevenson, died on Feb 8th 2007.   He left behind a locked combination lock for which he had set the combination himself 40 years previously basing the combination on a secret mnemonic device, a particular word or a sentence, perhaps, known only to him.

His intention was, that, after his death, he would try to communicate the mnemonic or combination to those left behind on earth.

According to the New York Times newspaper on February 18th 2007 the combination remained unknown.  I can find no reference to the combination being communicated since that time.

[AndyHB]

... as long as we can all remain polite with one another.

Is this really a possibility where Martin is concerned?     

[Jan]

I provided clarity that I was expressing my opinion as soon as you questioned it.  You clearly are not 'looking for clarity' all these posts later.

Oh my goodness Martin   - you must be having a laugh with me 

There is no evidence that has satisfied proper experimental scrutiny, of the existence of such a thing as a soul.  Just as there is none for the existence of minotaurs or zombies. 

Is there any point in me actually answering you on that?

The Electronic Voice Phenomenon (Spirit Voices on Tape), Instrumental Transcommunication (two-way communication with those who crossed over), the SCOLE Experiments, Out of Body Experiences, Near Death Experiences, Empirical Materialisation,  Trans and Mental Mediumship; Poltergeists, Xenoglossy and Reincarnation,  the Cross-Correspondences, Proxy Sittings. In relation to the issue of materialization, this lawyer also discusses Prof Albert Einstein's E=mc2.
Spiritualist Churches all over the world gathering and receiving messages from loved ones in Spirit via gifted mediums.

Respected scientists who investigatedhere

and Afterlife Hall of fame

If there were no such thing as a soul or spirit or that which survives physical death - then the above would not be possible would it?

If you want to discuss the existence of the soul etc further - there is a facebook group called 'Spiritual? Sceptic? Evidence for Existence of the Afterlife'    ... but then again if you are a closed minded skeptic it will be of little interest. It would probably rile you a bit instead. 

And you've shown your willingness to believe in zombies, when it suited your argument to do so, based upon a web page that clearly questions the truth of their existence.

Oh dear ... lol .. my willingness to believe in zombies ????
so I have added a link which you claim 'clearly questions the truth of the existence in zombies' - now why would I do that? I am trying to show you that there is a lot more out there that we do not understand. Just because we haven't seen something it doesn't mean that it isn't there or that it cannot exist. Don't you get that yet Martin??

You may be interested to know that Dr Ian Stevenson, although he was repeatedly asked whether he believed in reincarnation, was circumspect about his answer - not the actions of one whose scientific research leaves one with no other possible alternate theory or belief.

Dr Ian Stevenson, died on Feb 8th 2007.   He left behind a locked combination lock for which he had set the combination himself 40 years previously basing the combination on a secret mnemonic device, a particular word or a sentence, perhaps, known only to him.

His intention was, that, after his death, he would try to communicate the mnemonic or combination to those left behind on earth.

According to the New York Times newspaper on February 18th 2007 the combination remained unknown.  I can find no reference to the combination being communicated since that time.

give it time. sometimes it does take time. There is plenty of evidence out there for people who are willing to listen.

I was reading a timely article this morning from here which kind of gives a good explanation.

COMMENTARY: ON ADMISSIBLE EVIDENCE

A most fascinating insight is that two opposite extremes - the religious fundamentalists and the closed minded skeptics, behave exactly the same way; they do NOT read material they do NOT believe in, the material they do NOT accept. Christian Fundamentalists for example, will not read the works of Darwin, the evolutionist who claimed the human species evolved from lower animal species.

My TWENTY-TWO years experience of investigating the afterlife and dealing with closed minded skeptics show that these skeptics DO NOT READ any area of the afterlife evidence they do not accept in theory. For example, the most fundamentalist closed minded skeptics will not read, will not investigate the most persuasive objective and repeatable admissible evidence for the afterlife.

As I stated in the recent past, Psychology and Neurolinguistic clearly explain why that happens. The principle is that they do no read any material which is going to give them huge anxiety.

'TIME': But you will have to be patient with your partner or a loved one who so far may not accept the afterlife. If you keep saying that the afterlife evidence is now scientifically proven - over time, the resistance will get lower and lower - eventually to acceptance.

An article which you may wish to read (or not) then again whether you take it on board or not is entirely up to you 

http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/houdinicode.htm

There is a lot 'out there' (and within too).

Seek and ye shall find ... or hide your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist!

[Jan]

... as long as we can all remain polite with one another.

Is this really a possibility where Martin is concerned?     

I am beginning to wonder. At a bit of a loss as to the responses though ...

[AndrewF]

Well TBH I rather feel that the last two comments indicate that any lack of politeness is not one-sided...

[Jan]

Well TBH I rather feel that the last two comments indicate that any lack of politeness is not one-sided...

Trying to be as polite as possible - under the circumstances 

[Martin]

[Jan]

[Martin]

well - what is your point?

My point is that there is no scientifically reproducible evidence that indicates the existence of a soul, and that the articles you are providing to attempt to show that there is, are not valid for that purpose.

[Jan]

well - what is your point?

My point is that there is no scientifically reproducible evidence that indicates the existence of a soul, and that the articles you are providing to attempt to show that there is, are not valid for that purpose.

I disagree Martin - there is more than enough  evidence of the afterlife which would in turn give evidence of existence of the soul/spirit. As for being reproducible - it is reproduced every day all over the world!

"A careful review of the Scole phenomena and the high credibility of the participants can only lead to one conclusion: Humans survive physical death and have the capability to create physical actions in our 3D world that cannot be explained by contemporary physics. "

source & further info & references - http://www.afterlife101.com/Scole_1.html

[Martin]

[Jan]

[Martin]

I disagree with you because of what has happened in my life, what I have experienced and seen & heard - things which I cannot explain by what you would call 'normal' means. I disagree because on trying to find out more, I have found a lot of evidence both in books and online - and accounts from other people.

Your experience has nothing to do with what I'm saying - that there is no contolled study, subject to proper scientific scrutiny, which gives evidence for the existence of a soul. You are stating a belief, I am challenging you to provide a verifiable fact.

I also disagree because I cannot see any proof supplied by you or anyone else that proves against the existence of the afterlife or the soul.

I fully accept, and have accepted throughout this thread, that the non-existence of evidence doesn't mean that something can't possibly exist, but the non-existence of evidence does mean that there is no more properly controlled scientific evidence for the existence of what people call 'a soul', than there is for the existence of Daleks out in space.  I daresay we could find people who believe that Daleks exist out in space and are threatening to invade the earth, perhaps they will even testify to events in their lives that prove it to their satisfaction, but I posit that such people are barking.
 

[Jan]

I disagree with you because of what has happened in my life, what I have experienced and seen & heard - things which I cannot explain by what you would call 'normal' means. I disagree because on trying to find out more, I have found a lot of evidence both in books and online - and accounts from other people.

Your experience has nothing to do with what I'm saying - that there is no contolled study, subject to proper scientific scrutiny, which gives evidence for the existence of a soul. You are stating a belief, I am challenging you to provide a verifiable fact.

Firstly - my experience does have something to do with what you are saying Martin because it is a response to what you are saying. Secondly - I have given you links of where the study has taken place.

Another link here http://www.thescoleexperiment.com/artcl_05.htm

Thirdly - because of 'secondly' the only way it seems in which you are likely to believe what I am trying to show you is a fact (the afterlife existing therefore existence of the soul being) is for you to go and get your own 'verification'. If you are unable to bring yourself to do this then there is nothing more I can do to assist.

I fully accept, and have accepted throughout this thread, that the non-existence of evidence doesn't mean that something can't possibly exist,

well that is a start.

but the non-existence of evidence does mean that there is no more properly controlled scientific evidence for the existence of what people call 'a soul', than there is for the existence of Daleks out in space. 

there is evidence - books and links to findings -  but you don't seem to want to look at it. If you were interested then you would at least go and visit a Spiritualist church and find out more info for yourself. Spiritualism is a Science; is a Philosophy; and is a Religion Science and Spiritualism

I daresay we could find people who believe that Daleks exist out in space and are threatening to invade the earth, perhaps they will even testify to events in their lives that prove it to their satisfaction, but I posit that such people are barking.

I haven't seen any Daleks apart from on Dr Who and Torchwood (and I enjoy watching both). We don't know for sure what lies out in space - other than it would be a waste of space if it were just us (which is why I tend to believe we are not alone). There have been plenty of sightings of unidentified craft by people who are not 'barking'. Some sightings have been later identified to be something of Earthly origin and some we have no Earthly explanation for. There have also been accounts of abductions and missing time. Again - there is more going on than what we might be aware of presently.

Creations like the Daleks could very well exist - it is not an impossibility you know (though I hope they don't come to Earth - then again though ....  ).

[Jan]