The Queen's visit to the Republic of Ireland

[AndyHB]

OK, what do people feel about the Queen's current visit to the RoI?  Is she being forced to grovel, as some believe, or is this a great opportunity to put everything behind us?  Perhaps you feel the truth is somewhere in the middle?

[EliB]

I think it's great!!! But, security wise, I'll be glad when she's back on British soil!

I DO think things have to move on - living in the West of Scotland, I know very well the every day effects of this problem - and this is a greatly symbolic way of kicking it off. Reports say the majority of Irish people welcome the visit.....surely that should be enough?
Who's saying the Queen has had to "grovel"? I don't see anything about what she's done over there so far as anywhere near that!

[tranchiebabe]

I am glad she is making the visit. Britain treated Ireland in a disgusting fashion over the centuries and a grovelling apology should be made. I am only sorry that we still hold on to N. Ireland, the whole of the country should have been freed from British rule. Having said that I have no truck with the IRA who behave every bit as badly as the British did!

[EliB]

HAS the Queen apologised?? I didn't/haven't seen that!!

I disagree about Northern Ireland - and I think a lot of Loyalists there would too!! They WANT to be part of the UK!!!

[tranchiebabe]

I didn't say the Queen had apologised I said a grovelling apology should be made. As for NI the loyalists should never have had a say in the matter, imo!

[AndyHB]

Who's saying the Queen has had to "grovel"? I don't see anything about what she's done over there so far as anywhere near that!

There was a lot of this on the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 this afternoon.  Probably a small majority of the callers believed that she was being forced to grovel - and that a Government representative ought to have gone instead to be 'done over'!!

I am glad she is making the visit. Britain treated Ireland in a disgusting fashion over the centuries and a grovelling apology should be made. I am only sorry that we still hold on to N. Ireland, the whole of the country should have been freed from British rule. Having said that I have no truck with the IRA who behave every bit as badly as the British did!

Did 'we' treat the Iraish any worse than we have treated the Welsh?  As for Ulster, I would disagree with you until such time as the Unionists become a minority.  One reason the island was partitioned was because most of the North DIDN'T want to join the South.  How would this have sat with the early freedom fighters for whom FREEDOM was the ultimate.

[Boudi]

You can't apologise for something you didn't do.  I can't apologise for Hitler!

What was done in the past was done in the past, and you need a deep and nuanced understandimng of the past, and when it comes to Britains treatment....what was particularly wrong? That the potato crop failed?  That wasn't Britains fault, though to hear some, you'd think they went and infected the spuds themselves.I was hearing the other day that they are still upset about Beritish soldiers occupying Irish land, but they are United Kingdom soldiers on United Kingdon land.......
No, the Queen cannot apologise any more than the fools who tried to apologise for slavery.  She can acknowledge that things have been less than perfect, but she can't be guilty, so can't apologise

[EliB]

You can't apologise for something you didn't do.  I can't apologise for Hitler!

What was done in the past was done in the past, and you need a deep and nuanced understandimng of the past, and when it comes to Britains treatment....what was particularly wrong? That the potato crop failed?  That wasn't Britains fault, though to hear some, you'd think they went and infected the spuds themselves.I was hearing the other day that they are still upset about Beritish soldiers occupying Irish land, but they are United Kingdom soldiers on United Kingdon land.......
No, the Queen cannot apologise any more than the fools who tried to apologise for slavery.  She can acknowledge that things have been less than perfect, but she can't be guilty, so can't apologise

HERE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AndyHB]

The Baptist Union of Great Britain produced a very interesting explanation of the apology for slavery - http://bugb.org.uk/news_media/latest_news/jamaica.html

It is worth taking this into account in this debate about Ireland.  We, as Brits, may not have been directly responsible for the potato famine, we were responsible for the political and social conditions in which Ireland found itself at the time.  Remember that the same disease hit the whole of Europe (not simply Ireland), but it is only Ireland's experience that is remembered so poignantly.  One problem was the potato became the single most important staple of most of the Irish workers, whereas the main diet still revolved around butter, milk, and grain products until the early 18th century. This passage from the wikipedia article on the famine highlights its importance and how it allowed the landlords and owners to pay a pittance:

The expansion of the economy between 1760 and 1815 saw the potato make inroads in the diet of the people and become a staple food all the year round for the cottier and small farm class.
The potato's spread was essential to the development of the cottier system, delivering an extremely cheap workforce, but at the cost of lower living standards. For the labourer, it was essentially a potato wage that shaped the expanding agrarian economy

I accept that these political, economic and social conditions remain under debate, but as the controlling power (in much the same way as here in S. Wales) the British do have to hold our hands up to several mismanagement issues.

[Boudi]

Well, perhaps, but isn't it a case of a nation with a chip on it's shoulder as much as anything else?  The fault has always been with the British rather than it being just one of those things.  The famine was a problem of all the eggs inn one basket, with no diversity of diet or alternative economy sources.  It's probably remembered because many of the Irish went to America, and America has a voice.
The problem seems to be with the response to the famine, in that not enough was done to prevent hardship, but perhaps the same could be said of any event.  What did we do as a nation for the Japanese Tsunami?  I know that we are not a sovereign power over them, but how would we feel if the Japanese had a go over our lack of response?

Of course, hsitorically Ireland was given to the English by the Pope, who insisted that, I think, Henry II invade and get them in line.

[AndyHB]

Of course, hsitorically Ireland was given to the English by the Pope, who insisted that, I think, Henry II invade and get them in line.

Are you suggesting that the devout Catholic Irish Republicans ought to the blaming the Pope for all their troubles, not the Brits?  (I had forgotten this point, by the way, though there is debate as to whether the relevant Papal bull was actually genuine.)

[tranchiebabe]

You can't get away from the fact Ireland was treated abysmally by the British, and Britain is to blame for the subsequent uprising. The troubles which followed in the 60s were partly caused by Ian Paisley and his unionist sympathisers and their sick view of religion. That is not in any shape or form to excuse the actions of the IRA which are wholly evil.

[Jan]

I don't think she was forced to grovel. I believe she is an intelligent woman and that she would have discussed the visit thoroughly no doubt, with input from others, and reached the conclusion that its a positive way forward for her to be there.

[JJ]

I agree. It's a ceremonial sign of rapprochement - what's the Gaelic for rapprochement?

[Jan]