Quote from: Martin on April 19, 2011, 23:29:57

No it doesn't 'necessarily require a teacher'.  You can learn simply by observing the state of the world, by doing things and observing their effect, by making mistakes etc.  But so-called learned behaviour isn't really the case in point here, it's the effect of the world and its imperfections that causes us to become what we are.  We don't learn so much as become.

Sorry, Martin, but I would have to disagree.  Unless something is innate to all of us, such as the ability to use language, or to a specific group of us, such as (and here is a rather poor analogy, I accept) sickle-cell anaemia, any behaviour has to be learned, be that from individuals or community.  If the latter, where is this wonderful society that so many people - from all shades of politics and opinion - tell us we live within.  If from individuals where, ultimately, does the imperfection come from if we are all born without 'imperfection'?

I don't believe that you believe this Andy, I think we're seeing the fibbing Andy again (did he ever really go away?)  this time pretending that the argument that people keep on repeating is somehow difficult to believe.  It's bleedin' obvious that some things are not learned from others, but from experiences. When did the first human learn that fire burns you if you touch it?  It couldn't have been from other humans, because they had no experience of fire.  No, it will have been when he/she tried to pick some up!  Then he/she will have cottoned on pretty damn quick!