Sin - innate or learned?

[ecuworrier]

... the aim of morality should be about the well being of the individual not just the patriarchal notions of for the good of mankind ...

Why does 'for the good of humanity have to be patriarchal, ecu?  Even matriarchal societies hold to the principle.

hi jj i'm glad you use quoti#ation marks cos you paraphrase what i said and then create a point that i didn't make though i have a suspicion that there's pretty much the same colours present in the word change.... i was actually attempting to describe what the guy on the same programme we both heard was making

... but seems to me the crux of the argument is that silly manmade issue of sin from a religiosity perspective that lacks substance in the real world but keeps the legal spiritual lawyers happy.....

if it is a manmade issue, ecu, why was it the first thing that Jesus dealt with in so many of the miracles, etc.?  it's cos what Jesus dealt with was not what coloration man gets up to.. if you study the context of Jesus speaking where there is a reference to 'sin' you will find that the reference by thought /mindset or speech is initiated by the other person or in direct f#reference to frameworks that are used by the people around him... even the adulterous woman is not spoken to in isolation  i do believe that what men and their whiles have completely hijacked what GOD is about for instance in Exodus ... the rules are laid up dvia Moses in response to a situation where the last thing the folks wants to do is hang out with GOD as frightening and awesome as it is ... i mean there is something intrinisically problematic with this situation,,,,  innate by man's culture (and yes i don't mind using the wordman's in this context!.... )whereas GOD shows through Jesus that GOD wants that relationship... GOD is approachable ... and as for sin that for me has only a logical reasoned resonance given that Jesus points out that paying attention to the letter of the law (and so does GOD min the OT eg it's not your burnt offerings i want etcetc...   ) is about not having attenytion for GOD wwhich is a whole different ballgame from oh dear the tickbox rules are all over the place today my mine and the religious man next to me's reckoning.... hope that clears that up...

hi Andy thanks... but why would one want to believe in a presupposition?

i mean who decides what is sin and what is not sin?  what is this notion of right and wrong ? where is that coming from ?

Well, if you are a person of faith, it is normal to believe that that decision is made by the deity you belief in/follow.  One will sometimes then challenge others on their behaviour when you believe that behaviour doesn't match up with what 'God' says is acceptable.  For others (and some 'of faith' as well) believe that a country's laws outline what is and what isn't 'sin'.  Often, the two benchmarks match - as in the case of, say, murder or theft; sometimes, as in the case of, say, abortion or killing whilst defending oneself, there can be an indefinable but obvious mismatch; occasionally, a 'religious' or 'secular' (for want of a better pair of terms) law is superseded by something that strengthens the original law (such as Jesus' comments about murder and adultery in Matthew 5).shucks see above sthere is no contradiction... it's not agbout following rules unless it is rules wot GOD has specifically instructed you to... eg ;i want you to cross over the street and speak to that person'  or the lengths GOD is [prapared to go to to get our attention for somehtin.... let me tell yyou and this for me is the crux of the problematic that you may be able to understand a bit better.... the not doing of something that is harmful to me or someone else wh  or distracting from my rellationship with GOD well show me someone who manages that one!....  may well edify oneself...  something you feel deep down is 'no'  for whatever t#reason.... or at least causes you to pause and hesitate....  but the not doing of something alone will not of itself deal with the past if this is patterned behaviour....   it will by no means deal with the reason you did it in the first plavce....  in many circumstances at least ... it's that thing you were refering to earlier about activity and the person where does it come from....   whereas Jesus unlike the likes of us who all we want is for folks to stop doing things we don't do/want to do in the first place as well as things we are embarrassed and ashamed of and we don't watn to be reminded of...etetc etc....  well Jesu is about setting free so Jesus wants to deal with the stuff that is hidden as well as the stuff that is showed.... personally i find the notion that i do hear a lot so am embittered  without is the kind of DIY discourse in churches and includes dshockingly prayer ministries ... that all a person need s to do is pull theri socks up.... no actually .... Jesus the Lord Saves He is Rescuer and completely pertinent about how Jesus operates though not always to our taste! or expectation.. (according to its those rules groan again) ah now the groaning of Creation ... now who listens to that... we4 woudl be in a lot better state all over if we as folks listened out for the Groaning of Creation and rushed to the Rescue.. but hey there aint no doctrine for that only move of the Holy Spirit and a few ears and a willingness to learn from the Spirit of GOD  .. like if we were prepared to accept Papa knows best and so deal with Papa rather than trying to twiddle out a whole pile of rules and the like

what does Jesus say about innate or learned stuff then... ?
some passages do come to my mind

Sometimes, Jesus points out that a situation is not because of the sins of a person's parents or ancestors; at other times he denounces certain places for not repenting; at yet other times, he talks about 'un-cleanliness' coming, not from stuff that goes into a person but from within ('from out of his mouth' - Matthew 15).
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I think the error consists of thinking that behaviour has to be learned from someone else.  I learnt that if I suckled I felt satisfied, I learnt that if I was hungry I was in pain.  Nobody taught me that.
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ah now we is back to GOD spomeplace in that


GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,

[Martin]

hi jj i'm glad you use quoti#ation marks cos you paraphrase what i said and then create a point that i didn't make though i have a suspicion that there's pretty much the same colours present in the word change.... i was actually attempting to describe what the guy on the same programme we both heard was making

Hi ecu, I think it's Andy not JJ that you are addressing?

[JJ]

Oh yes I think it was Andy - not me ecu!  I was puzzled there for a while and had to re-read.  Thanks for pointing it out Martin.

[ecuworrier]