Author Topic: what good are pastors on the warfront?  (Read 233 times)

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Offline ecuworrier

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what good are pastors on the warfront?
« on: August 25, 2011, 16:17:56 »
hi decided to respond to some comments in relation to something i said... when GOD DiD ... i thought was telling somehow but anyways  thought i would aSK a direct question


here is another pastor situation that causes outbreak peace but then nobody is paid for the role and it's mostly lay folks that do it ... it's street pastors of course... so  if peace is no0t breaking out on the battle front..... what good are pastors on the warfront?  well would love to know....

i am responding to thre inevitability expressed by comments on another line... and i am interested in this you see i don't believe in just war which somehow makes war inevitable to people's ability to rationalise... i think war is about something deeply disturbing and troubling that is not being addressed

""""I also agree that there's a very REAL need for pastors in the Armed Forces - and there is ALWAYS going to be a need for us to have Armed Forces!""""
 
""""Much as I deplore the perceived need for armed forces, I can't see a situation where we do not have them in this world. There are (IMO) ALWAYS better ways of settling conflicts, but sometimes people will not accept that route, and other people are not prepared to wait... (possibly with good reason - I grant that willingly). However I do feel it should always be an ultimate last-resort solution, and, sadly, I do not believe it generally is.
Regardless of that, while there are armed forces, they definitely do need pastors.""""

justifying war makes war inevitable because ... justification is after the event as much as it is before the event...  am i the only one who feels sick about those heroic lines in war films and the like?

on the other hand if inevitablity of war is not it's own moral justification for existence then what good are pastors if they are apparently unable to stop the goings on?

but i am wondering is this really a straight "just war not just war arm wrestle....."  how else might we play the game ... of survial of course?

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« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 16:23:04 by ecuworrier »

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Offline JJ

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 07:19:36 »
Two things:

Though personally I'm a pacifist in tendency, I do think that there is something about war that is so deep in human culture and habit and even need, that it's not as simple a matter as to say that war is wrong: it's more complex than that.  There is always a human need to connect at times of high emotion whether they be wanted or unwanted, good or bad; and war provides an intense forum for this, probably more often than times of celebration unfortunately. 


And the other thing is that pastors are there to mop up the emotional and spiritual damage to the soldiers, just like medics do with injuries, not so much to stop the war.

Offline ecuworrier

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 20:25:31 »
hi thanks jj  wow you raise a lot of interesting points..

cos pacifist is not a term i equate with myself  i do wonder what it means in the way you use it... ?

you talk about human  culture and war do you think that it is a habit and a need for women?   or are you saying that women are irrelevant in any aspect of discussion of culture....

just asking not in any ways suggesting women are all angels...

i think given the hurt war causes there is that avenging or revenging thing complete with identification of the enemy.... that gives a sense of er justification somewhere... but who started it and why...but what do you think that is about? it is interesting though that war at least in modern terms is regarded as a national cause?thing?  the whole group response thing... has become individuals don't start war groups and therefore individuals acquiesce to war it has to happen all at the same time it seems it is very odd... do you think they ever find the enemy all the while they are searching for the enemy on the other side?....   

what do you suggest is going on in this  'intense emotional forum'?

i guess that for me the pastors should be doing something more useful and Christlike....  i don't see the point of activity that is not aimed at finishing the conflict once and for ALLTIME forever...

see told you i wasn't a pacifist

GOD BLESS!

Peace and Love,


Two things:

Though personally I'm a pacifist in tendency, I do think that there is something about war that is so deep in human culture and habit and even need, that it's not as simple a matter as to say that war is wrong: it's more complex than that.  There is always a human need to connect at times of high emotion whether they be wanted or unwanted, good or bad; and war provides an intense forum for this, probably more often than times of celebration unfortunately. 


And the other thing is that pastors are there to mop up the emotional and spiritual damage to the soldiers, just like medics do with injuries, not so much to stop the war.

Offline JJ

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2011, 09:18:56 »
Hi ecu

re the pacifist question - it's not very well thought out, that's why I said tendency.  I subscribe to CND and IFOR http://www.ifor.org/ and Amnesty and other organisations against violence but am not very active really.

As far as the point about culture and war I wasn't separating the sexes in any way - I was referring to the whole culture. I'm not suggesting that men fight because they are men or anything like that - I was ruminating more about what it is in human culture that makes war so common.

No time to enlarge on the discussion at the moment. Time to get dressed!

Offline EliB

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2011, 17:30:54 »
Padres/Chaplains/Pastors - whatever you want to call them are there to provide PASTORAL support to anyone in Operational Theatre who might want/need it! Full stop! THAT is their role - nothing else.

After that - not sure what there is to discuss.... :?:

Offline ecuworrier

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 11:06:09 »
Hi ecu

re the pacifist question - it's not very well thought out, that's why I said tendency.  I subscribe to CND and IFOR http://www.ifor.org/ and Amnesty and other organisations against violence but am not very active really.

As far as the point about culture and war I wasn't separating the sexes in any way - I was referring to the whole culture. I'm not suggesting that men fight because they are men or anything like that - I was ruminating more about what it is in human culture that makes war so common.

No time to enlarge on the discussion at the moment. Time to get dressed!

i guess i don't think of CND or amnesty haven't got to the other one yet as pacifist they are pretty activist in theri own way things  like marches high profile letter writing is standing up to be counted on the 'no' front.... not subscribing to the war machine and abstaining from activities and speaking out against conditions and activities etc ....

   pacifist i bleieve is the in effect the tendency to accept the actions and tendencies of  the bully if anyone so far mentioned fits that bill it is in my  view mopre likely to be the chaplains of the war front.

i don't get how you talk about human culture in that way ..

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Offline AndrewF

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2011, 21:22:36 »
As indicated in the quote you used from a post I made on another topic, I also think that war is not the answer - except 'in extremis' - and even then that situation could probably have (almost) always been avoided. I would be far happier in a world where armed forces were not necessary. Sadly humanity is flawed, and there are people who will respond to nothing less. As a result, I accept that armed forces are a 'necessary evil' (sorry Eli, I know you will probably disagree with the 'evil' part of that!).
My father was a career soldier, starting with WW2, but that was a different culture with the cold war a very real threat in the perception of most of the world. That proved to be due to a communication problem. We thought they were trying to conquer the rest of the world and they thought we were trying to destroy them, so we both built up arsenals of weaponry that could wipe out the entire world several hundred times over, just so 'we' could be sure to come out on top - but of what?
For many years after that the British Army has been in active service somewhere on the globe - in fact I think I am right to say that there have been only a hand-full of years since WW2 when they have not been in on active service somewhere (and that excludes NI by the way). We have now been involved in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya in quotes 'anti-terrorism' or 'humanitarian' actions which are actually regime-change wars in all cases. All of them are proving to make this country less stable and more prone to terrorist attacks. That is not to say that the aim of the conflict was a bad one - getting rid of Sadam Husein, Ghadafi and Al Qideida are all good objectives, but the question is, was this the right way to go about it, and indeed did we have a legal justification for the actions we undertook, let alone a moral one?
I firmly believe that war is NOT the way to achieve these goals, but diplomacy, backed by international sanctions and an international court which can hold even presidents (or equivalent political leaders) to book for their actions. The trouble is that, to ensure compliance, there has to be at the very least, an international Armed Force to deploy if the country's leader raises the proverbial 2 fingers. I do, however think that this is what it should be - and international (armed if needs be) 'police' force, rather than every nation having it's own army, and deciding to go to war with another country if the govt of the day decides it is in that country's best interest to do so - and damn the rest of the world!
To this extent I am a pacifist - but that is not to say that I am prepared to be a door-mat for any bully around.
As Christ said, you need to turn the other cheek - and by that he meant you have to stand up and make the other person see you as a human being of equal stature not someone who can be pushed around like a menial servant. Let me explain. What he was referring to was the back-handed slap that is meeted out to a menial who has offended, and who is in no position to offer the least resistance. If you turn the other cheek and say 'O K Now hit this side' the striker has to use the other side of his hand - which is the side you use to strike someone of equal stature, and is a challenge to a combat on equal terms - passive resistance, not lying down and being trampled on! the same is true of his comments about walking the extra mile - a Roman soldier could force someone to carry his pack for one mile, but was not allowed to make him carry it any more than that. By going the extra mile you were putting the soldier in breach of regulations and liable to being disciplined - but after all, you were just doing him a favour! Who said he did not have a sense Sorry this is a bit of a ramble and veering 'off topic' as well, but I do think it is relevant to the case. Pacifism is NOT cowardice or being a door-mat - indeed many pacifists were medics and ambulance drivers during the wars and suffered a huge rate of attrition as they were unarmed and could not therefore defend themselves.
As for the pardres, they are (as has been noted) there for the pastoral needs of the combatants - and God knows they are needed. Whether they should feel their role includes advising the soldiers to lay down their weapons and refuse to fight is a different question, but that is not what they are employed to do. Given that their role is to help those in a conflict zone I think it is reasonable to suppose that they will self-select from the group of priests who are OK with the idea of armed conflict and just wars.... but regardless of the rights and wrongs of armed conflict they do a very good job in very difficult circumstances.
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Offline ecuworrier

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 16:52:19 »
As indicated in the quote you used from a post I made on another topic, I also think that war is not the answer - except 'in extremis' - and even then that situation could probably have (almost) always been avoided. I would be far happier in a world where armed forces were not necessary. Sadly humanity is flawed, and there are people who will respond to nothing less. As a result, I accept that armed forces are a 'necessary evil' (sorry Eli, I know you will probably disagree with the 'evil' part of that!).
My father was a career soldier, starting with WW2, but that was a different culture with the cold war a very real threat in the perception of most of the world. That proved to be due to a communication problem. We thought they were trying to conquer the rest of the world and they thought we were trying to destroy them, so we both built up arsenals of weaponry that could wipe out the entire world several hundred times over, just so 'we' could be sure to come out on top - but of what?
For many years after that the British Army has been in active service somewhere on the globe - in fact I think I am right to say that there have been only a hand-full of years since WW2 when they have not been in on active service somewhere (and that excludes NI by the way). We have now been involved in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya in quotes 'anti-terrorism' or 'humanitarian' actions which are actually regime-change wars in all cases. All of them are proving to make this country less stable and more prone to terrorist attacks. That is not to say that the aim of the conflict was a bad one - getting rid of Sadam Husein, Ghadafi and Al Qideida are all good objectives, but the question is, was this the right way to go about it, and indeed did we have a legal justification for the actions we undertook, let alone a moral one?
I firmly believe that war is NOT the way to achieve these goals, but diplomacy, backed by international sanctions and an international court which can hold even presidents (or equivalent political leaders) to book for their actions. The trouble is that, to ensure compliance, there has to be at the very least, an international Armed Force to deploy if the country's leader raises the proverbial 2 fingers. I do, however think that this is what it should be - and international (armed if needs be) 'police' force, rather than every nation having it's own army, and deciding to go to war with another country if the govt of the day decides it is in that country's best interest to do so - and damn the rest of the world!
To this extent I am a pacifist - but that is not to say that I am prepared to be a door-mat for any bully around.
As Christ said, you need to turn the other cheek - and by that he meant you have to stand up and make the other person see you as a human being of equal stature not someone who can be pushed around like a menial servant. Let me explain. What he was referring to was the back-handed slap that is meeted out to a menial who has offended, and who is in no position to offer the least resistance. If you turn the other cheek and say 'O K Now hit this side' the striker has to use the other side of his hand - which is the side you use to strike someone of equal stature, and is a challenge to a combat on equal terms - passive resistance, not lying down and being trampled on! the same is true of his comments about walking the extra mile - a Roman soldier could force someone to carry his pack for one mile, but was not allowed to make him carry it any more than that. By going the extra mile you were putting the soldier in breach of regulations and liable to being disciplined - but after all, you were just doing him a favour! Who said he did not have a sense Sorry this is a bit of a ramble and veering 'off topic' as well, but I do think it is relevant to the case. Pacifism is NOT cowardice or being a door-mat - indeed many pacifists were medics and ambulance drivers during the wars and suffered a huge rate of attrition as they were unarmed and could not therefore defend themselves.
As for the pardres, they are (as has been noted) there for the pastoral needs of the combatants - and God knows they are needed. Whether they should feel their role includes advising the soldiers to lay down their weapons and refuse to fight is a different question, but that is not what they are employed to do. Given that their role is to help those in a conflict zone I think it is reasonable to suppose that they will self-select from the group of priests who are OK with the idea of armed conflict and just wars.... but regardless of the rights and wrongs of armed conflict they do a very good job in very difficult circumstances.


lovely post AndrewF!

 as i was reading through i got to the point where i was wondering whether in apparent realpolitik terms whether so long as we did war and legitimised war we could get beyond the boys will be boys attitudes of them and us and our salvation is in how big our stockpile of weapons .... does to start a war ever make sense? to join in war? whatever do wars come to an end for? that's if they ever do.... i find mysefl wondering ! it;s been pretty peaceful this side of europe whereas there's lots of hotspots flashpoints and tensions in countries with very different cultural origins.... i say different but are they really so very different countries with agricultural heritages vered off into the crazy stakes of the industrial revolution manufacturing and service industries with their borrow on the never never and live like never before for the few and eventually the many....  what view for civilisation unless we believe culturally followed by politically that we have less to lose by not going to war.... the jaw jaw factor it works some of the time but not all of the time the ugly legacy of the iraq war is tinged with economic opportunism whether it is oil or arms trade... and while we legitimise these exploitative activities we as a human race we will continue to have wars and a legacy of hate... jaw jaw it feels is not enough...

some time ago i found myself pondering that football match you know  christmas day whenever it was during the first world war where troops from opposing sides put down their weapons and played footie and then went back to warfare////  if only lthey had refused to play on... the wargame i mean....  the touch of Jesus stops them in their tracks if onluy they can remember why they stopped in the first place...  instead of remembering why they had to beat the crap out of eachother....  do they need spiritual leaders ? their need for personal salvation is ongoing is it something confined only to our culture? if not maybe the troops should stay at ho,me and the pardres/spiritual advisers sent to face eachother on the front line...  but that's from a backseat adviser who does not want the war in the first place and sees no point in it... if the spiritual leaders see the point let them fight it out after all is it not about who's god is the biggest winner? which is silly cos the bible shows that battle by battle the outcome is not always to be predicted or if it is then what on earth is the point of fighting it off in the first place.... folks not a part of the table negotiations having to put their lives on the front line is just pretty undercivilised in my opinionj

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Offline AndrewF

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2012, 17:48:30 »
lovely post AndrewF!
Thank you! I will try to answer your points in turn...

 as i was reading through i got to the point where i was wondering whether in apparent realpolitik terms whether so long as we did war and legitimised war we could get beyond the boys will be boys attitudes of them and us and our salvation is in how big our stockpile of weapons
Sadly probably not...
# .... does to start a war ever make sense? to join in war?
That depends on how you define 'making sense' - politically (and sometimess even more importantly, economically) it can sometimes be the only answer that does make sense, but morally I don't believe it ever does.
whatever do wars come to an end for? that's if they ever do.... i find myself wondering ! it;s been pretty peaceful this side of Europe
assuming you ignore little things like the Troubles in NI, the Basque separatist, the Baader-Meihoff and Red Brigades etc... not to mention the proxy wars we have fought
....  what view for civilisation unless we believe culturally followed by politically that we have less to lose by not going to war.... the jaw jaw factor it works some of the time but not all of the time the ugly legacy of the iraq war is tinged with economic opportunism whether it is oil or arms trade... and while we legitimise these exploitative activities we as a human race we will continue to have wars and a legacy of hate... jaw jaw it feels is not enough...
Sadly I think that you are pebbly right - because we are scared of what we don't understand and react by trying to fight it... But this is why the jaw-jaw is SO important, because the more we understand the 'others' the less different we realise they are..
some time ago i found myself pondering that football match you know  christmas day whenever it was during the first world war where troops from opposing sides put down their weapons and played footie and then went back to warfare////  if only lthey had refused to play on... the wargame i mean....
Indeed - but they would have been shot by their own side for certain if they had, as opposed to only probably being shot by the enemy if they returned to the fight... Not odds I would cheerfully chose! (but there again I hope I would not have been in that position in the first place...)
  do they need spiritual leaders ?
Clearly they do! - and rather better ones than they mostly had I would say - at least better than the 'top brass' of spiritual leaders who mostly stayed at home and pontificated.
 their need for personal salvation is ongoing is it something confined only to our culture? if not maybe the troops should stay at ho,me and the pardres/spiritual advisers sent to face eachother on the front line...  but that's from a backseat adviser who does not want the war in the first place and sees no point in it... if the spiritual leaders see the point let them fight it out after all is it not about who's god is the biggest winner?
I think you are missing the point here ecu. The two sides of the first war (and most other wars) had/have the same God(s), and the spiritual leaders on both sides were, in fairness, caught between a rock and a hard place. If they had not said that it was the duty of every able-bodied man to join up they would have been slung in jail (and executed) for treason. I doubt (m)any of them, in their heart of hearts, honestly believed that the mass slaughter of the First War was actually what God wanted - and in fact I do not believe that God has anything to do with the outcome of a battle let alone a war.
which is silly cos the bible shows that battle by battle the outcome is not always to be predicted or if it is then what on earth is the point of fighting it off in the first place....
Actually, I think the outcome of the battles in the Bible is fairly predictable - if the Jews had been behaving themselves and sticking to the covenants then they won and if not they lost! But I also think this is pretty irrelevant to the current debate, as even if you assume that the words we read in the bible are literally true (as opposed to the drift of the narrative being true) then the logic behind it is that God was establishing a nation who would lead other nations into a more Godly way of life, and they would not be able to do that if they were wiped out....
 folks not a part of the table negotiations having to put their lives on the front line is just pretty undercivilised in my opinion

[/i]Couldn't agree more - but it was ever thus - at least since kings stopped leading from the front in battle...
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Offline ecuworrier

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 18:40:13 »
lovely post AndrewF!
Thank you! I will try to answer your points in turn...

 as i was reading through i got to the point where i was wondering whether in apparent realpolitik terms whether so long as we did war and legitimised war we could get beyond the boys will be boys attitudes of them and us and our salvation is in how big our stockpile of weapons
Sadly probably not...
# .... does to start a war ever make sense? to join in war?
That depends on how you define 'making sense' - politically (and sometimess even more importantly, economically) it can sometimes be the only answer that does make sense, but morally I don't believe it ever does.
whatever do wars come to an end for? that's if they ever do.... i find myself wondering ! it;s been pretty peaceful this side of Europe
assuming you ignore little things like the Troubles in NI, the Basque separatist, the Baader-Meihoff and Red Brigades etc... not to mention the proxy wars we have fought
....  what view for civilisation unless we believe culturally followed by politically that we have less to lose by not going to war.... the jaw jaw factor it works some of the time but not all of the time the ugly legacy of the iraq war is tinged with economic opportunism whether it is oil or arms trade... and while we legitimise these exploitative activities we as a human race we will continue to have wars and a legacy of hate... jaw jaw it feels is not enough...
Sadly I think that you are pebbly right - because we are scared of what we don't understand and react by trying to fight it... But this is why the jaw-jaw is SO important, because the more we understand the 'others' the less different we realise they are..
some time ago i found myself pondering that football match you know  christmas day whenever it was during the first world war where troops from opposing sides put down their weapons and played footie and then went back to warfare////  if only lthey had refused to play on... the wargame i mean....
Indeed - but they would have been shot by their own side for certain if they had, as opposed to only probably being shot by the enemy if they returned to the fight... Not odds I would cheerfully chose! (but there again I hope I would not have been in that position in the first place...)
  do they need spiritual leaders ?
Clearly they do! - and rather better ones than they mostly had I would say - at least better than the 'top brass' of spiritual leaders who mostly stayed at home and pontificated.
 their need for personal salvation is ongoing is it something confined only to our culture? if not maybe the troops should stay at ho,me and the pardres/spiritual advisers sent to face eachother on the front line...  but that's from a backseat adviser who does not want the war in the first place and sees no point in it... if the spiritual leaders see the point let them fight it out after all is it not about who's god is the biggest winner?
I think you are missing the point here ecu. The two sides of the first war (and most other wars) had/have the same God(s), and the spiritual leaders on both sides were, in fairness, caught between a rock and a hard place. If they had not said that it was the duty of every able-bodied man to join up they would have been slung in jail (and executed) for treason. I doubt (m)any of them, in their heart of hearts, honestly believed that the mass slaughter of the First War was actually what God wanted - and in fact I do not believe that God has anything to do with the outcome of a battle let alone a war.
which is silly cos the bible shows that battle by battle the outcome is not always to be predicted or if it is then what on earth is the point of fighting it off in the first place....
Actually, I think the outcome of the battles in the Bible is fairly predictable - if the Jews had been behaving themselves and sticking to the covenants then they won and if not they lost! But I also think this is pretty irrelevant to the current debate, as even if you assume that the words we read in the bible are literally true (as opposed to the drift of the narrative being true) then the logic behind it is that God was establishing a nation who would lead other nations into a more Godly way of life, and they would not be able to do that if they were wiped out....
 folks not a part of the table negotiations having to put their lives on the front line is just pretty undercivilised in my opinion

[/i]Couldn't agree more - but it was ever thus - at least since kings stopped leading from the front in battle...

Bless you this is all rather a lot will have to come back to this!

Offline AndyHB

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Re: what good are pastors on the warfront?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 20:49:08 »
Padres/Chaplains/Pastors - whatever you want to call them are there to provide PASTORAL support to anyone in Operational Theatre who might want/need it! Full stop! THAT is their role - nothing else.

After that - not sure what there is to discuss.... :?:
They often take roles in the medical field, as porters and even the military equivalent to first responders.
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