Not knowing

[Jan]

[Boudi]

One of the great things about Unitarianism is that ability to say 'I don't know'...even to say I don't care (in the sense that it isn't an important issue).  the church generally has spent centuries trying to provide answers, such as limbo to the question of what happens to unbaptised babies, only to later find another set of answers because they can't admit that in reality...they don't know...but are afraid of admitting it.

[Martin]

I agree Boudi, and still it goes on. The Catholic church, the Evangelical churches etc, all pretend to know stuff they do not and cannot know. 

Part of it is insecurity.  People feel they have found something in their religion, something precious to them, and they fear that, if they admit to any part of the baloney being untrue, then they will lose what they have found. 

Part of it is control.  If you can set yourself up as the arbiter of truth, to decide who is wrong and who is right, who is in and who is out, then you have power over other people.

The big question is whether Christianity has actually become so tainted, whether it is carrying so much of this poppycock/power-corruption/prejudice that it has become something that ought to be ditched. The world, I think, needs to learn the lessons of Love. Can Christianity still be the vehicle for that?

[AndyHB]

I agree Boudi, and still it goes on. The Catholic church, the Evangelical churches etc, all pretend to know stuff they do not and cannot know. 

Part of it is insecurity.  People feel they have found something in their religion, something precious to them, and they fear that, if they admit to any part of the baloney being untrue, then they will lose what they have found. 

Shows how little u know about Catholicism, Evangelicalism, etc., Martin.  This is what faith is all about - be that religious or non-religious faith.  We all live by faith to some degree or other - as children, when we assume that our parent(s) will come and collect us from school; as adults, when we assume that our job will still be open for us when we go into work tomorrow; etc.  Largely, we have that faith because of what we have experienced in the past, or at least have seen what others have experienced in the past.  As a result, we can be pretty certain about how things will pan out.  That's not to say that we know anything for certain - and few Christians (of the types you have mentioned, or those you haven't mentioned) ever claim to have such a degree of certainty.

[Boudi]

so why have they come up with so many answers...even if those answers have nothing to do with scripture?

[Martin]

Largely, we have that faith because of what we have experienced in the past, or at least have seen what others have experienced in the past.  As a result, we can be pretty certain about how things will pan out.

I don't think that's true Andy.  It doesn't seem to me that experience of life is what builds faith. For example, if one relied on experience, most people, having never seen a miracle, would never assert that supernatural, miraculous events occur.  Yes there will be some unexplained events in their experience, but experience would also teach them that some events that were previously unexplained, end up having perfectly natural explanations. Often Christians believe what they believe, not because of experience, but despite experience.  They believe what they believe because of what they've been told by other Christians, or because of the accounts in the Bible - but most importantly because it gives them something.


If people really stepped back and took a completely objective view, based only on experience and reason, their beliefs would change dramatically. 

[AndyHB]

I don't think that's true Andy.  It doesn't seem to me that experience of life is what builds faith.

So are you saying that, when you wondered about who was going to collect you from school when you were at primary school, you didn't rely on your experience to tell you who would?  I realise that this may seem a very simplistic example, but talking to people from damaged homes as I have done over the years, especially those who have been fostered or adopted, I have been amazed at how many people (even fairly old folk) who said that it was at this level of fear/faith that they began to rebuild their lives.  Suddenly, as they saw it, rather than being left behind to wait for 'someone' to collect them, they were amongst the first to be collected and by the same person(s) every day.

Child development is all about developing trust and faith in people, and in many ways a Christian faith is no different.  We start off trusting God because something has touched us in a way that nothing else touches us; we start off tentatively, unsure about our decision in most cases (and I think that this is one reason why some people start off their Christian lives at such an incredible pace - uncertainty can breed a brashness that is merely a covering for the uncertainty).  Over time, as we see things happen to us and to others, and as we get to know Christ better - through prayer, through fellowship with other Christians, through reading the Bible, etc. - that uncertainty becomes less marked: it doesn't mean that we don't continue to doubt, but it means that we have experiences to refer back to that point to the emptiness of that doubt. 

For example, if one relied on experience, most people, having never seen a miracle, would never assert that supernatural, miraculous events occur.

Sometimes, I wonder whether we, as humans [not merely the Christians or religious folk amongst us] ascribe to much to the miraculous.  As such, I don't think that your comment here fully represents human thinking.  Yes, I know that there are plenty of people who - in the rarefied confines of a virtual community like this - state they don't believe in the miraculous, but I have been amazed how many of those I have met in the flesh from such communities actually make comments such as 'It's miraculous how such and such a thing happened'.  They may not mean what I mean by miraculous, but there does seem to be an innate assumption of the concept.

Often Christians believe what they believe, not because of experience, but despite experience.  They believe what they believe because of what they've been told by other Christians, or because of the accounts in the Bible - but most importantly because it gives them something.

Not sure that being given constant grieve, ridicule and the like, as happens to so many Christians across the world, is necessarily a positive draw for people, Martin.  As for believing 'despite experience', there is something true about this.  In a few minutes, I will be driving over the Bridgend and the heritage railway that I am a member of.  Over the years, bits of the track and associated hardware have been stolen by metal thieves largely because no trains are actually running yet (we are working hard to rectify that!!), but since this time last year, we have noticed an increasing number of incidents of theft.  To combat this, we instigated a system of 'walking the line', especially in badly effected areas, and marking obvious signs of theft (such as freshly cut rail, or gaps on sleepers where the 'chairs' that hold the track have been removed), as well as reporting the thefts to the police.  It hasn't stopped the thefts, but in several places it has reduced them - but we are now finding new theft sites.  Today, I will be walking the full 4.5 miles of the track looking very carefully for any such sites in the belief that, by doing so, we will give the thieves a message that we are aware of what is happening and acting on this knowledge.

If people really stepped back and took a completely objective view, based only on experience and reason, their beliefs would change dramatically.

And f you listen to the testimonies of many Christians, this is precisely what did happen to them and led to them becoming Christians.  At the same time, life on earth doesn't often work in a rational and reasoned way, so I'm not convinced that basing one's whole life on reason and rationality actually helps us.

[Jan]

   you know - when I posted this, it was meant to be a 'self reflective' or 'inward looking' thing - not a 'finger pointing' thing.

Faith is very much a personal thing - which is evident with each of us (or not) as the case will be.

[AndyHB]

  you know - when I posted this, it was meant to be a 'self reflective' or 'inward looking' thing - not a 'finger pointing' thing.

Could it be that some people don't like to admit that they think they know everything?

[Jan]

Could it be that some people don't like to admit that they think they know everything?

would it not be a wee bit foolish to assume that any of us knows everything?

[Boudi]

it's admitting it that's the problem

[Martin]

So are you saying that, when you wondered about who was going to collect you from school when you were at primary school, you didn't rely on your experience to tell you who would?

There is no way that you could construe that this is what I'm saying from what I wrote.

The fact that you need to use arguments like this, as if they were reasoned responses, gives away the insecure footing of your faith, not its foundation in experience.  You need to compare faith in God to things like parents picking up children from school, because, for most children, that is a reasonable expectation from experience, and you want to paint belief in God as similarly evidenced.  Yet belief in God (as a hidden, supernatural, other person looking upon us from outside - rather than an integral part of human makeup) has nowhere near the same evidential basis. 

For a start, you can't see God.  When you talk to God it's not like talking to your mum or dad who responds in words and body language.  When people say that God has responded, it's because something has happened - for example they prayed for guidance about which career to choose and, someone offered them a post in a company, or something.  People talk about 'answers to prayer', but when you delve into what they mean by that, it can be very unclear that any external force or personality has been involved in providing that answer.  People talk about healing from illness, but when you delve, there is no statistical basis for believing that an other-being has done anything to effect the healing. All in all, the basis for many of the beliefs that Christians hold has very little basis in evidence, and much, much more basis in their own yearnings and desires.

I'm not saying that faith is necessarily a bad thing, mind. But I am saying that to pretend that faith comes close to knowledge is an unnecessary, and harmful, self-deception.  It leads to a sort of dogmatism that obscures the truth, it feeds prejudices and makes people believe that they can prescribe what is best for others.

A wiser faith is one which takes everything as provisional, works simply on working assumptions and is keen to improve on those assumptions where evidence suggests it should.  A wiser and deeper faith comes not from a forced, inflexible trust in precepts and proscriptions, but from the quest to follow Love, wherever it leads.

IMO.

[Jan]

it's admitting it that's the problem

which is why I thought it would be good to share the text